What Utter Stupidity....

[Lord Jim]

N.Y. news site stirs outrage after publishing gun owners' names

In the annals of the gun debate, both the act and the outrage that followed are familiar: On Saturday, the Journal News of White Plains, N.Y., published an interactive map showing the names and addresses of thousands of handgun permit holders in Westchester and Rockland counties.

Click on a dot and zoom in: You'll get a name and an address of everybody who owns a handgun permit, which the paper obtained through a public records request.

The story soon dominated the Internet. Through Wednesday, it was still drawing outrage from online commentators as well as from conservative political interests such as Breitbart.com, which saw a media outlet targeting law-abiding gun owners' privacy -- and safety -- after a polarizing tragedy in Newtown, Conn.

“I am outraged by this as you have put me, my family, friends and others at risk," wrote Keisha Sutton on the newspaper's Facebook page. "My family and friends consist of law enforcement officers and 'licensed' handgun owners.”

Others argued that publishing such personal information would drive gun owners to the black market.

CynDee Royle, the newspaper's editor and vice president/news, was not surprised at the reaction.

"We knew publication of the database would be controversial," she said, "but we felt sharing as much information as we could about gun ownership in our area was important in the aftermath of the Newtown shootings.”

Al Tompkins, a faculty member at the nonprofit Poynter Institute for journalism, criticized the database, saying in an email published on Poynter.org: "Publishing gun owners’ names makes them targets for theft or public ridicule."

But that may not happen, according to a study by researchers from Carnegie Mellon University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology that examined the aftermath of a similar gun-ownership data dump by a newspaper.

In 2008, the Commercial Appeal in Memphis published a searchable database of concealed-carry handgun permit owners in Tennessee that included names and ZIP codes of gun owners (but not addresses). A similar furor followed. "What they've done is give criminals a lighted pathway to [burglarize] the homes of gun owners," Chris Cox, now the top lobbyist for the National Rifle Assn., told the paper at the time.

But that concern turned out to be wrong, according to the 2010 study by Alessandro Acquisti, an associate professor at Carnegie Mellon, and Catherine Tucker, a professor at MIT, titled "Guns, Privacy and Crime."

Using the information published by the Commercial Appeal, they found burglaries in 2009 declined 18% in the city's ZIP codes with the most concealed-carry permits and generally increased in ZIP codes with the fewest.

The researchers found no difference for violent crimes, such as assault, that often lack premeditation.

The study also suggested that, following publication of the Memphis database, burglary risk instead shifted to areas with fewer gun registrations. In fact, the study noted that the "results suggest that, despite activism on the part of gun owners against the publication of such databases, it may actually be gun permit holders who benefited" from publication.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nati ... 3615.story

Re the part of the article I highlighted....

Well, duh....

Even before I saw that information, as soon as I heard about this story, I thought the gun owners who were complaining had the wrong end of the stick...It is the non-gun owners who should be up-in-arms (so to speak) about this...

The self-righteous nincompoops at this publication, who had obviously set out to bring ridicule and opprobrium to law abiding gun owners, have instead provided a helpful blueprint for the community's criminal element to identify those households where they are not likely to encounter a firearm...

Perhaps next, they can publish a similar map of all the houses that have security systems or own dogs...

A vacation schedule would be nice too....

If I lived in Westchester County NY, and I didn't own a gun, I would rush out and get a permit, and then call these morons and beg them to please, please, be sure to add me to their map....


Unfriggin' believable....

[oldr_n_wsr]

No use being stupid if you don't publisize it. Hope they get sued out hte ying yang for this. Not only did they show who is armed and not armed, but where the thieves can get the guns. Not everyone is home 24/7. Get the safe, get the combo hidden and get a carry permit. Blow the shitheads to hell if they enter.

I am still waiting on my hand gun permit (forget about getting a carry permit although I did apply anyway). Don't see a need for a handgun, just want the permit (although I will get a pistol once I have the permit and keep it stored in my cousins safe).

I live in Suffolk County so I am not on that map.

[dgs49]

There is nothing wrong with publishing information that is public record.

If you can't deal with the truth, that is YOUR problem.

[rubato]

Wasn't it the very idea of these morons that if everyone knew they were armed they would be safer?

Oh wait, the real scientific evidence is that guns in the home make you less safe. Their confusion is less surprising now.


yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

The day that LJ, dgs49 and rubato agree on a thing is the day hell will fre . . . oh. Oh dear.

[Lord Jim]

Wasn't it the very idea of these morons that if everyone knew they were armed they would be safer?

Which is precisely what the study quoted in the LA Times article demonstrates.

The morons in this, (well, aside from rube of course) were the idiots who decided to compile and post this map, thus increasing the danger to they very folks who's behavior they no doubt find laudable; the non gun owners.

Oh wait, the real scientific evidence is that guns in the home make you less safe.

Once again rube demonstrates his complete contempt for science, as he again references that BS study he posted that was shown to have more holes than John Dillinger's last suit...

There is nothing wrong with publishing information that is public record.

If you can't deal with the truth, that is YOUR problem.

Oh come on Dave. There's all kinds of information that is "public record" that would be beneficial for thieves and burglars to have, but that doesn't excuse someone for going to the trouble of taking all the raw data, organizing it, and providing it for the criminals in a handy, easy to use format. Most criminals, (except for the tiny percentage who are real pros) are lazy and not particularly bright, (two factors that no doubt played a role in their career path choice.) What the hell point is there in making in their job easier?

The day that LJ, dgs49 and rubato agree on a thing is the day hell will fre . . . oh. Oh dear.

Maybe, but that didn't happen here....

Rube continues to suffer from his form of Turrets Syndrome where he continues to mindlessly repeat the same bullshit assertions without regard to the facts or evidence presented, and Dave is attempting to justify what these idiots did, (which is the opposite of my position.)

And I have no idea what your position is, since you say you agree with me, rube, and Dave, and we don't agree...

[Lord Jim]

the real scientific evidence is that guns in the home make you less safe.

Here's the absolute, 100% proof that rube himself does not actually believe that:

By his own admission, rube owns a gun. (Okay, 90% proof, since in rube's case, it's impossible to eliminate the possibility that he is stupid enough to own something that he believes makes him less safe.) He is one of the folks he calls a "moron", who if he lived in one of the affected counties, would be popping up on that map.

So which is it rube? Which are you, a lying hypocrite or an idiot? (Well, obviously we all know that you're both, but I mean in this particular instance)

Because for you to hold the position which you have publicly proclaimed while simultaneously owning a firearm, means you absolutely have to be one or the other; lying hypocrite or idiot. Take your pick.

So I'll ask again rube; when are you going to get rid of your gun?*




*BTW rube, just so you'll know, should you decide to return to a discussion about guns and continue to ignore that question, (which I previously had asked you in another thread, and I see it has not been addressed) you can expect to see it asked again...and again...and again...anytime you post in a gun thread without answering it.

(And you should certainly know from previous experience, that I'm the sort of feller who makes good on promises like that... )

[Crackpot]

Jim after all these years have you not noticed that rube is an elitist? These rules simply don't apply to him since he is one of the elect. Heck it's the central defining trait of his personality (disorder).

[MajGenl.Meade]

And I have no idea what your position is, since you say you agree with me, rube, and Dave, and we don't agree...

Well LJ, I didn't say that I agreed with any of yez. Although as it happens I do agree with you. I saw a vague point of correspondence in that all three of you did not think giving out of public info addresses of gun-owners was something gun-owners should complain of. But that was all - nothing more than an accidental (and very thin) concurrence. No equivalence

I wonder if it's possible to compare statistics for guns at home (but not known to the criminals) vs. them knowing that guns are in the house. As you point out, and as the statistics in the story indicate, if criminals know a person is likely to be armed, they stay away from that house.

However, it's entirely possible that guns in the house do increase the likelihood of accidental shootings (kids plugging kids) and other forms of intentinal/unintentional death and injury to family members. It's a bit obvious isnt it? I'm not likely to shoot anyone by mistake because I er . . . (keep this quiet) don't have a gun.

If rubato has one, his position seems very peculiar

Meade

corrected a spelling erer

[Rick]

Well Meade I would think if they were just stealing guns they would avoid those houses that don't have guns.

I really don't know how scientific that thought is though...

[rubato]

The fools narrative is "If I have a gun AND they know I have a gun I will be safer because they will be too afraid to break in." The problems with this are:
1. You're more likely to die by gunshot if you have a gun. Hence the statement is empirically false. 2. Burglars like to steal Cash, Guns, Drugs, and Jewelry (in roughly that order) and if they know you have them lying around they are more likely to break in. 3. Poor neighborhoods have lots of guns and very high crime rates, apparently having lots of guns does not deter drive-by shooting &c.

The truth is that it is all a fantasy of the paranoid, physically weak, and fearful that a gun will help them at all. There are circumstances where it is more rational to have a gun; you live in an area with bears, wolves, other large predators, you live next to the Mexican border and have people and drugs being smuggled across your land, or some other limited social circumstances. But for the most part, the story they tell is a complete fantasy.


http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=21302627

If you have a gun you have to keep it locked up to prevent predictable tragedies. If it is locked up, then it is not useful in protecting you against home invasion robberies &c.

_________________
http://www.commongunsense.com/2011/10/g ... appen.html

The number of children and teens in America killed by guns in 2006 would fill more than 127 public school classrooms of 25 students each.

More preschoolers (63) were killed by firearms than law enforcement officers (48) killed in the line of duty.*

Black males ages 15 to 19 are almost five times as likely as their White peers and more than twice as likely as their Hispanic peers to be killed by firearms.

Between 1979 and 2006, the yearly number of firearm deaths of White children and teens decreased by about 40 percent, but deaths of Black children and teens increased by 55 percent.

Since 1979, gun violence has ended the lives of 107,603 children and teens in America.

Sixty percent of them were White; 37 percent were Black.

The number of Black children and teens killed by gunfire since 1979 (39,957) is more than 10 times the number of Black citizens of all ages lynched throughout American history (3,437).

______________________________

* I believe they mean officers killed by guns in the line of duty.
http://www.odmp.org/search/year



yrs,
rubato

[Rick]

I do want to add one thing to all this stuff about guns.

I have successfully defended myself against all rabbit attacks.

I think more rabbits have survived my defensive posture than those that have died.

Some were killed by the dogs...

[rubato]

Guns should be registered and the owners should be required to have insurance against all losses due to careless or illegal use or storage of that gun.

If the NRA wants to sell that insurance and back up their rhetoric with their own money that would be fine. (The local gun range was insured by the NRA back when I belonged to it. It has since closed). It would give them something better to do with their money than buying whores in the Congress and Senate.

yrs,
rubato

[Lord Jim]

Burglars like to steal Cash, Guns, Drugs, and Jewelry (in roughly that order) and if they know you have them lying around they are more likely to break in.

Gee, it would be so nice if the facts actually backed you up...(not to mention a refreshing change)

From the OP (which as is so often the case you apparently either couldn't read or couldn't understand):

In 2008, the Commercial Appeal in Memphis published a searchable database of concealed-carry handgun permit owners in Tennessee that included names and ZIP codes of gun owners (but not addresses). A similar furor followed. "What they've done is give criminals a lighted pathway to [burglarize] the homes of gun owners," Chris Cox, now the top lobbyist for the National Rifle Assn., told the paper at the time.

But that concern turned out to be wrong, according to the 2010 study by Alessandro Acquisti, an associate professor at Carnegie Mellon, and Catherine Tucker, a professor at MIT, titled "Guns, Privacy and Crime."

Using the information published by the Commercial Appeal, they found burglaries in 2009 declined 18% in the city's ZIP codes with the most concealed-carry permits and generally increased in ZIP codes with the fewest.

The truth is that it is all a fantasy of the paranoid, physically weak, and fearful that a gun will help them at all.

So would you describe yourself as more "paranoid" or "physically weak"?

There are circumstances where it is more rational to have a gun; you live in an area with bears, wolves, other large predators, you live next to the Mexican border and have people and drugs being smuggled across your land, or some other limited social circumstances.

Which of those would you say best fits your situation living in suburban Santa Cruz? Big wolf problem? Have there been Bigfoot sightings?

If you have a gun you have to keep it locked up to prevent predictable tragedies. If it is locked up, then it is not useful in protecting you against home invasion robberies &c.

You've convinced me rube...

Only a complete imbecile would keep a firearm unless they had a well founded concern about wolves, bears, or Mexican drug smugglers....

So tell us rube, when is it again that you plan to be getting rid of yours? Surely you're not a complete imbecile are you?

I see you neglected to deal with that question in your most recent responses; I'm sure it was just an oversight on your part, so I thought I'd remind you again.

[Joe Guy]

Maybe rubato owns one of those Ruger Union Worker pistols.

[Lord Jim]

Jim after all these years have you not noticed that rube is an elitist? These rules simply don't apply to him since he is one of the elect. Heck it's the central defining trait of his personality (disorder).

Oh yes CP, I'm well aware of that....

His "One rule for me and another for the hoi polloi" attitude is one of the major components of his character that goes into making him such a living breathing example of the most negative liberal stereotypes....

(He has exhibited this regularly; the "fuck the working class and the poor" attitude he displays when he trumpets the idea of higher fuel prices is another example of this elitism. Not everyone has a wealthy spouse to support them and cover their bills.)

But if he's going to continue to bloviate on this subject, and sneer at, condemn and ridicule others for making the exact same choice he has made, then it is entirely fair to point out the glaring hypocrisy of his position whenever he does so.

Let him admit that he thinks the reason he should have a gun and others shouldn't is because he thinks he's better than anyone else, and the rules he believes should apply to others don't apply to him. (Which I know full well is almost certainly the explanation, and which is one of the things I find most amusing about rube. Given the lack of knowledge, lack of basic social skills, lack of reasoning ability, and lack of character that he has exhibited in these forums for more than than a dozen years, there is no one with less justification for feeling that he is "better" than anyone than himself.)

[Gob]

Ps. Not to forget that this entire "rubato" character is a delusional fantasy.

Do we have a shred of evidence of any of the things he says about himself, job, wife, living standard, holidays, persona, being true?

Did he ever attend a Cat Talk or CSB F2F?

Has anyone here engaged with him off board IRL?

[Lord Jim]

I want to make clear that I certainly do not begrudge rube owning a firearm...

(Hell, if he's half the asshole IRL that he is here, it's probably a very prudent decision.... )

[MajGenl.Meade]

Did he ever attend a Cat Talk or CSB F2F?

Are you suggesting he's a pussy?

[rubato]

I have owned guns in the past and will likely do so again in the future. The last gun I owned I bought after a 2-week wait from a local gun shop. What has that got to do with anything?

Only a deluded person thinks that owning a dangerous thing like a gun makes you safer. It does not. The evidence proves it.

I have also taken vitamin supplements, but I don't believe that vitamin C prevents colds because the evidence says it does not.

People with no cogent argument try to change the subject. Weak.

The data is the data. The facts are the facts.

I am not against people being able to own guns. We need more effective regulation of gun ownership. We need to regulate gun ownership and use rationally and with a method which locates the costs of guns on those whose behavior can minimize those costs, like we do driving and car ownership and like we do with the chemical industry. If regulation costs so much that I don't think its worth it, then I won't buy a gun. If I am willing to pay for it, then I will.

Guns cost all of us a lot of money, thousands of broken bodies and thousands of lost human lives. Currently gun owners are able to transfer those costs to all of the rest of us. If they have to pay themselves then they will be more vigilant in reducing those costs.


yrs,
rubato