EU blues

[Sean]

Of course they decided not to adopt the Euro Dave. What I disagree with is:

1.) The idea that they 'opted out'. These words imply that they were part of it and decided not to continue with it. This was not the case.

2.) The idea that deciding whether or not to adopt the Euro had any bearing on their EU membership and the conditions thereof.

[Lord Jim]

I think the fundamental problem with the EU (and even more so with the Euro) is that it is "An idea who's time has not yet come"....

I believe that at some point in the future, Europe will become a united political entity, (in fact the whole world will; otherwise, how will we ever become a founding member of The United Federation Of Planets?... )

But what has happened re the EU and the Euro, is that the political class of some of the major European players have raced on ahead of what their populace and societies are prepared to embrace...

A lot is made of the divisions between the "red states" and "blue states" in the US, but you can take one of the reddest of the red states (say, Mississippi) and compare it to one of the bluest of the blue, (Massachusetts, for example) and you will still have nowhere near the cultural, and shared societal values divergence that exists between Germany and Greece, or Denmark and Portugal....

For one thing, every state in the US, red blue or purple, has written into it's state constitution a requirement that it's state budget be in balance every year....

(Now a number of them, including the one I live in, frequently resort to book keeping legerdemain to achieve this, but at least that's the goal...)

Within the Euro Zone, you have participating states and populations with wildly divergent societal and governmental attitudes in relation to budgetary policy, and values like thrift, savings, tax collection, work ethic, official corruption, etc....

They keep trying to come up with one short term fix after another, but frankly, I fully expect that given all the external stresses of a sluggish global economy, and the internal contradictions, that in the not too distant future, (the next couple of years at most) the Euro will either collapse out right, (In which case, if you have any substantial holdings in Euros, I suggest you keep them in a German bank; I understand that if a country withdraws from the Euro Zone, the holdings in that country's banks revert to the currency of the host country...I don't know about you, but I'd much rather be holding Deutschmarks than Greek Drachmas when the music stops...) or be reconstituted without the participation of countries who's budgetary policies have been flagrantly irresponsible.

In regards to the EU itself, again, the political class overreached, got ahead of what their societies were prepared to accept, and the result has been a huge backlash...

I doubt very seriously that the objective of those who, in the rush of exuberance of the immediate Post-Cold War Era, sought to lay the the ground work for a "United States Of Europe" intended that their efforts would result in the rise in popularity of right wing-nationalist political movements, but that has been the result....

And even amongst those who are not ready to embrace Neo-Fascism, it is quite understandable that they chafe under, and resent policies that permit folks who come from countries that provide far less in terms of support for their citizens, to come to their country, just to take advantage of the generosity available in their country (the article Strop posted about the unemployed, unwed single mother from Lithuania who moved within the "EU" to the UK just to take advantage of the far greater social benefits, is a perfect case in point...)

The "EU" is a fine and noble idea...the intent is to put hundreds of years of warfare behind them and rise together as one civilized, united people...

But the reality is, that the gulf between these countries, (while no longer resulting in warfare, which is certainly progress) remains deep and broad, in a whole range of ways, economically and culturally....

Too deep and broad at this point, to try to impose any sort of unified political, economic or military structure....So deep and broad, that the effort to do so is likely to be counter-productive...(for which there is abundant evidence)

This is not to say that the concept of the EU should be given up on....

But until there is a greater convergence between the shared values of these very different and ancient nations, the politicians need to take a step back, and adopt far more modest goals.

[Gob]

I second everything Jim said, with the added caveat that i hope the bloody thing falls apart soon.

[liberty]

I second everything Jim said, with the added caveat that i hope the bloody thing falls apart soon.

Gob, what would be so bad about a federated Europe provided there are adequate mechanisms to keep the federal government under control? What Europe needs is a common language to help unify them. I would suggest Latin or French; Latin because it is common to the history of the continent and French because the French are so touchy about their language that they would accept any other existing language.

[dales]

„Heute Europa, Tomarrow die Welt“

[Sean]

I second everything Jim said, with the added caveat that i hope the bloody thing falls apart soon.

Gob, what would be so bad about a federated Europe provided there are adequate mechanisms to keep the federal government under control? What Europe needs is a common language to help unify them. I would suggest Latin or French; Latin because it is common to the history of the continent and French because the French are so touchy about their language that they would accept any other existing language.

I really hope that was all a joke lib...

[Guinevere]

I'm still flabbergasted that someone would say Massachusetts and Mississippi aren't that different. You need to get out of California more, Jim.

[Lord Jim]

I'm still flabbergasted that someone would say Massachusetts and Mississippi aren't that different.

Compared to Denmark and Portugal?..

[liberty]

I second everything Jim said, with the added caveat that i hope the bloody thing falls apart soon.

Gob, what would be so bad about a federated Europe provided there are adequate mechanisms to keep the federal government under control? What Europe needs is a common language to help unify them. I would suggest Latin or French; Latin because it is common to the history of the continent and French because the French are so touchy about their language that they would accept any other existing language.

I really hope that was all a joke lib...

Well then help me understand, what would be so bad about a federated Europe? Or is it that you see no unifying value in a common language?

[Lord Jim]

Lib, I have to tell you, you seem like a nice guy, but you really do come up with some odd notions....

what would be so bad about a federated Europe provided there are adequate mechanisms to keep the federal government under control? What Europe needs is a common language to help unify them. I would suggest Latin or French; Latin because it is common to the history of the continent and French because the French are so touchy about their language that they would accept any other existing language.

The differences in Europe, (as I pointed out in my earlier post) are far deeper, more complex, and vexing in terms of creating a meaningful "federation" than just language....

And I have to say that I don't expect Latin to be revived as a universal language any time soon...

I suspect that will happen about the same time the US kicks Puerto Rico to the curb and makes Honduras a state....

[Sean]

So tell me lib, how would you feel about the US giving up their national identity and independence to form one big happy country with Canada, Central America & South America?

Neatly forgot... Your new language is French. You'd better start learning it!

You'd be happy with all that would you?

[dales]

NAFTA

[liberty]

So tell me lib, how would you feel about the US giving up their national identity and independence to form one big happy country with Canada, Central America & South America?

I don’t know if national identity is would be that much of a concern as our devotions to freedom and prosperity would be. I don’t know if we truly have a national identity in the same way as the English and the French do. We are the United States of America, but we don’t call ourselves united statesians and anyone living in the Americas can call themselves and American. I would not want to join any federation that would have any less freedom or safe guards for those freedoms than we already have.
And the good thing about a federation is that you can be two things at once. You could be both English and European.

Neatly forgot... Your new language is French. You'd better start learning it!

A national a Language with two or three generations to phase it in; teach in the schools and it shouldn’t be a problem.

You'd be happy with all that would you?

Depends

[oldr_n_wsr]

States are states. I get along with just about anyone in any state I have met them. Sure there are "generalizations" especially now-a-days down in the Carolinas with NYers moving down there escaping from oppressive property taxes (among other taxes). But I have yet to not make a few freinds anywhere I have been.

Back in '75 when I went to Germany mainly along with Austria, France, Switzerland, I sensed a more "country" identity. All were polite and even went out of their way to attempt english (as most of the learned it in school). All except the one French waiter (my only contact with the French people and certainly not a representative sample, but helped fuel the possible myth/fact).
I heard the waiter speaking english at another table and when he came to us (German Grandparents, and American grandchildren) he did not even make an attempt. I "felt" he was also being rude (just a feeling) so we got up and left. Went to Lichtenstein instead.

[dales]

Paris?

Once outside that slum, the French are more friendly.

[oldr_n_wsr]

I forget where, but not Paris. Somewhere near Austria, Switzerland and Lichtenstein. I would have to look at the road map I have on where we went.

[dgs49]

LJ, thanks for taking the time to elaborate. I don't disagree with anything you say.

One aspect of the EU that I don't think has been touched upon is that the "ruling elite" are largely divorced from the wishes of the people of those countries. Despite the removal of the checkpoints at borders, a Frenchman is still a Frenchman, an Italian an Italian, and so forth. And the cultures are DIFFERENT (as you have pointed out), and nobody really asked the people what they thought about tearing down the borders and pretending to be one consolidated society.

Over the past several years, I have had numerous conversations with business associates in different countries over there, and a common theme is that they resent being told what to think and how to live by some elitist asshole in Brussels (or wherever).

[oldr_n_wsr]

Despite the removal of the checkpoints at borders, a Frenchman is still a Frenchman, an Italian an Italian, and so forth.

On that idea, at least things change somewhat gradually across the USA. NY'ers are not that different from northern New Jersey-ians and same for northern and southern Jersey-ians to Delawarians. When one makes the jump from NY to Alabama, there is a big difference in dialect and ways of living. If one was to migrate across the USA and stay a year or two in each place (not far from the previous place) it would not seem that different. Make the big jump and the differences are great. I think Europe may be the same some day.