You like odds? I don't, but here are some anyway.

[Lord Jim]

Well Scooter, here's an article from a Liberal web publication, (Slate...the article praises the Australian law) that says the same thing as the Wiki article:

The country’s new gun laws prohibited private sales, required that all weapons be individually registered to their owners, and required that gun buyers present a “genuine reason” for needing each weapon at the time of the purchase. (Self-defense did not count.)

http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/1 ... ide_a.html

[Guinevere]

Go right to the footnoted source in the Wiki piece:
http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western ... 1118940796

POLICE say a home invasion on a 77-year old grandfather and his incapacitated wife in Herne Hill on Wednesday night was 'like a scene from a horror movie'.

Inspector Bill Munnee, of the police's East Metropolitan District office, said the invasion - in which one intruder was shot - was 'very frightening' for Eugenio and Maria Valenti.

“It was like your worst nightmare,” he said.

The couple locked themselves in their bedroom after they were woken by two male intruders. Inspector Munnee says Mr Valenti armed himself with a 12-gauge shotgun, which he had a licence for and had appropriately stored in a cabinet.
“He put one shot into the shotgun and warned them not to come in because he had a firearm and a sick wife. Despite that, they went straight to the bedroom and kicked the door open.”

“One of the intruders grabbed the barrel of the gun. There was a struggle and Mr Valenti still had hold of the butt and his hand was in the trigger, and during the violent struggle the firearm was discharged and it hit one of the offenders on the left front abdomen.”
Police will not charge Mr Valenti with unlawful wounding, saying the elderly man had a right to defend himself and his incapacitated wife.

“There’s no doubt in our mind that what he did was entirely justified and authorised and excused by law,” Insp Munnee said.“In this case, Mr Valenti is the victim.”

Two men, aged 18 and 35, have been charged over the incident. One was remanded in custody at Midland Magistrates Court this morning and the other remains in hospital, where he is also in custody.

Mr Valenti, who was allegedly attacked during the home invasion, has been treated for a fractured hand, and cuts and bruises to the face. Insp Munnee said the current charges might be upgraded “depending on the seriousness of Mr Valenti’s injuries.”

Insp Munnee is calling the grandfather “the Herne Hill hero” and says he is being supported by friends and family. He says police are not providing extra protection, but will remain on high alert.

“Mr Valenti knows if he were to ring the police, we won’t be treating it like a normal person ringing up. Mr Valenti is high on our priorities and if possible, I don’t want him to go through this ever again, and I’m sure he doesn’t either.”

[Lord Jim]

Yes Guin, the law allows, as the wiki quote states " it may be legal under certain circumstances to use a legally held firearm for self-defense."

But since self defense is not accepted as a "Genuine Reason" for being issued a firearm permit, presumably he was just lucky enough to have the shot gun because he was able to get it for some other reason...

[Joe Guy]

Most of the argument I'm hearing about new gun restrictions vs no gun restrictions is coming from the extremists on both sides of the issue.

Especially on talk radio (since I don't watch much talk tv). One person calls in and says 'Ban the 2nd amendment!' and others say 'Yeah good idea'. Then someone says 'You ain't taking my guns away!' and others say 'I'll shoot anyone who tries and I'm gonna buy more just in case they try'.

Then there are quite a few people like Scooter, who react emotionally and say that you might as well let everyone own a nuclear warhead since the amount of people killed by them is miniscule. Somehow that's supposed to compare to millions of gun owners actually owning firearms and not being injured or killed.

In the meantime 300,000,000 other people go quietly on their way knowing that not much will change and firearms are not the cause of the problem. Go ahead, stop selling AR-15s to people who want them. Let's see how effective that is at stopping mass killings.

[Jarlaxle]

Or the families of the hundreds killed in Chicago so far this year?

I am guessing gang violence is much of the cause of death in Chicago this year. In which case, let them take care of offing each other. But I am sorry for the collateral damage.

That is not how a civilized society resolves conflict and problems. One of those "collateral" victims was a young girl who sang at the Inauguration the week before, and then she was shot down in the streets of Chicago. No, we can't let them keep on "offing" each other.

Are you willing to declare martial law, tear up the Constitution, and patrol Chicago with armored Hummvees, armored personnel carriers, and fully-armed soldiers? Are you willing to have a curfew, with a shoot-on-sight policy for anyone out after curfew? Are you OK with house-to-house searches for contraband? If not...then there is basically no choice, Chicago is and will remain a sewer.

[Jarlaxle]

That many in the Sandy Hook area value their gun freedoms even after the event.

I heard an interview with the father of one of the victims: he said that an assault weapon ban was a "stupid idea" that would "accomplish nothing".

[Lord Jim]

Here's a little more:

Seventy seven-year-old man Eugenio Valenti was recuperating at home today after the incident in which disturbed two men breaking into his Campersic Road home at Vino Italia winery about 9.40pm.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread438492/pg1

So I'm guessing that Mr. Valenti was able to get the shot gun legally under the "feral pest control" "Genuine Reason" option....As opposed to the "77 year old man wants to be able to defend the life of himself and his incapacitated wife from scum bag home invaders" explanation, which would not be considered a "Genuine Reason"....

Lucky for him he needed to have the shotgun for a good reason like stopping varmits from eating his grapes, so he was able to have it on hand to protect his life, which is not considered a good reason....

So I guess the lesson here is, if you want to be able to own a firearm legally to defend yourself and your family in Australia, what you need to do is buy a farm....

Or maybe join the professional competitive target shooting circuit....

[Lord Jim]

Jim--re the ban on assault weapons, how are they to be defined?

That's a fair question Big RR, and I readily concede that of the three proposals, this one is the most problematic...(I also think it's the one that will have the least impact, especially if it isn't made retroactive) I think some thought needs to be given as to how to define these weapons, (and also to make sure that if a law on this is passed, it's crafted in such a way that minor design changes won't enable the manufacturers to circumvent it.)

As I've made very clear, personally I think the magazine limit proposal is the one likely to have the greatest affect. (a 10 round magazine is going to produce a lot fewer bullets in a drive-by to strike innocent people than one with a thirty or fifty round clip, no matter what kind of weapon it is.) Universal background checks may help some, but they would be a lot more effective if they were implemented in conjunction with prosecuting those convicted felons who get caught by them under existing federal laws.

[Crackpot]

The problem I see with limiting magazine size is their relative ease of fabrication.

[dales]

All they are is stamped metal with an internal spring.

Let them ban this and ban that, there are ALWAYS work arounds.

[Lord Jim]

The problem I see with limiting magazine size is their relative ease of fabrication.

Nothing that's Jerry-rigged is going to work as reliably as something that's factory made, (it will jam a lot more frequently, and hopefully blow up occasionally in the hands of the user.) nor will it be as readily available. Obviously once the magazines are outlawed you also ban their domestic manufacture and import.

[Crackpot]

With the price of 3D printers dropping it's not going to be hard to fabricate clips of reasonable quality

[Crackpot]

http://store.solidoodle.com/

[Jarlaxle]

The problem I see with limiting magazine size is their relative ease of fabrication.

Nothing that's Jerry-rigged is going to work as reliably as something that's factory made, (it will jam a lot more frequently, and hopefully blow up occasionally in the hands of the user.) nor will it be as readily available. Obviously once the magazines are outlawed you also ban their domestic manufacture and import.

There are tens of millions already out there...and magazines are non-wearing parts, they will last essentially forever. (The magazines my grandfather got when he bought his Army-surplus M1911A1 70 years ago are a bit worn in the finish but still feed perfectly.) A magazine is a VERY simple thing to make...I suspect I could do so just with things I have in my garage now; I KNOW my uncle could. With modern CAD-CAM manufacturing, you can literally scan one into a shop's computer and the machine will make a copy. Honestly...quality isn't all that critical for a magazine. Poor tolerances aren't a good thing, but the rounds will, usually, still feed. Remember: many were designed as military weapons, and many of those were manufactured with a fairly wide tolerance for magazine quality. I have seen a 60-year-old BAR feed fine from magazines that were 80+ years old, covered with dents and scrapes from hitting the ground when ejected, and occasionally bent.

[liberty]

.

That is not how a civilized society resolves conflict and problems. One of those "collateral" victims was a young girl who sang at the Inauguration the week before, and then she was shot down in the streets of Chicago. No, we can't let them keep on "offing" each other.

The police have no information to work with because the people in the area are helpless and fear the gangs. The whole country could become an intercity ghetto.

[rubato]

what are the odds of 100,000,000 pairs of dice sitting in drawers rolling a 2?

Do you have even the slightest notion of how probability works?

Stupid.


yrs,
rubato

[Lord Jim]

What are the odds that a million angels, all dancing on the head of a pin, will all be doing The Lindy?

[dales]

...with babies strapped to their backs.

[Lord Jim]

I think rube must have mistaken this for the "random thoughts" thread....

[Joe Guy]

what are the odds of 100,000,000 pairs of dice sitting in drawers rolling a 2?

Zero.

Dice do not roll if they are sitting inside drawers.