The Taxes are Done and off to the Tax Guy for Filing.

[Sean]

Any time I go from paying $X to paying $X + 2% is a tax raise as far as I am concerned. Obama said no tax raises on the middle class. He lied. Plain and simple. I, the middle class, am paying more taxes today than December 2012. No question, no answer, he lied.

Am I not right in saying that this was not a tax 'cut' but more a tax 'holiday' and only ever meant to be a temporary measure? That being the case, it's wrong to call the end of the 'holiday' a tax raise.

If I may offer an analogy...
You go to the grocery store and see that they have a special offer, 25% off milk, this week only. You pay less for your milk and are pleased. The following week you once again pay the regular price for milk. You would not suggest that the milk was subject to a price hike... would you?

[Econoline]

And BTW, your math is very very very fuzzy. You're lumping together tax rates that shouldn't get lumped together (for example, you don't pay 20-30% federal income tax on every dollar you earn. Some dollars aren't taxed at all, many are taxed at a lower rate). Plus you're ignoring exemptions and deductions, which reduces your effective tax rate that much more. I'm sure you are not paying 60% of what you earn to any government, and making shit like that up doesn't do any argument any good.

Ok lets do the math.
20-30% in income tax to the feds be it soc sec, medi-whatever and regular income tax. Can we agree on that? Lets take 25% thats in the middle.
Lets say I make $100K (not far off) so the feds let me keep $75K.
NY State takes 7% so now I get to keep $69750.
Already I have paid 32% of my pay in taxes to the feds and state.

OK then, let's actually do the math. If you're earning $100,000 and you have 3 exemptions (I think you've mentioned elsewhere that you have 1 daughter who's still your dependent?) and just take the standard deduction (hint: if you do that, get a better tax accountant) you'll be paying $11,241 in federal income tax, plus another $7650 for SS+Medicare (that's the full rate, not the reduced rate that applied for the past couple of years) so the feds let you keep $81,109. NY tax (6.45%) using the NY standard deduction would be $4744. So at that point you've paid more like 23½% rather than 32% and you've already exaggerated your taxes by over a third. Like Guin said, making shit like that up doesn't do any argument any good.

[rubato]

And BTW, your math is very very very fuzzy. You're lumping together tax rates that shouldn't get lumped together (for example, you don't pay 20-30% federal income tax on every dollar you earn. Some dollars aren't taxed at all, many are taxed at a lower rate). Plus you're ignoring exemptions and deductions, which reduces your effective tax rate that much more. I'm sure you are not paying 60% of what you earn to any government, and making shit like that up doesn't do any argument any good.

Ok lets do the math.
20-30% in income tax to the feds be it soc sec, medi-whatever and regular income tax. Can we agree on that? Lets take 25% thats in the middle.
Lets say I make $100K (not far off) so the feds let me keep $75K.
NY State takes 7% so now I get to keep $69750.
Already I have paid 32% of my pay in taxes to the feds and state.
Then we subtract over $7500 for property taxes and now we are down to $62250 which is about 40% in taxes paid.
Not that I have $62K+ because a bunch of it went towards the health plan, somewhere in the 10K range but that's before taxes not that the gov cares as I really haven't dropped down in the tax bracket.
But now it gets a little complicated.
Sales tax (of which only groceries are not subject to) is 8.625%. So other than food, I pay that rate.
On top of that I pay over 26 cents per gallon of gas in NY taxes and thats just the state. The county collects another 4% per dollar on top of that (not per gallon, per dollar. they did say that when a gallon goes over $3 they were not going to collect above that, but they never redid their tax tables to reflect that so that is another lie and they continue to collect on the higher cost. Gas is now $3.95 per gallon).

So maybe 50% of every dollar I earned might be a little more reasonable as opposed to the 60%. But I would doubt that les than 50% of my money goes to some sort of tax be it fed payroll, state payroll, property, sales, gasoline, etc taxes. And to me, a gov (general gov from local to feds) taking 50% of what womeone earns is ridiculous. I may join the illegals and go off the books.

1.
You should hire someone to do your taxes. Property tax is deductible so you cannot just add it to state and federal taxes. Further, you can save up to $22,500/yr tax free in a 401k ($17,500 if you're under 50 yrs old) which reduces your basis quite a lot.

SS is less a 'tax' than a part of your retirement savings and social insurance for your children and wife if you die early from smoking or some other misadventure so I don't think that's fair to include.

yrs,
rubato

[oldr_n_wsr]

I only have my wife and myself as deductions. Daughter is out of school so she is on her own. haven't put into the 401k here at work yet, was waiting til I make it a year here, have done so in the past.
My math may be a little off but what percentage of ones salary that all the various forms of gov take is a fair percentage?

[rubato]

A lot of the most important services provided by government are 'invisible' because the problems they address have disappeared and most people are no longer aware of it. The rate of TB infection world wide is about 30% but in the US it is about 3.4 per 100,000 solely because of the efforts of the government. Diptheria, Typhus, Malaria were all major killers and now are not because of government. Most of the things which prolong your life or keep you safe are provided by government.

The fact is that we can have either better or worse government based in part on how much we want to pay for it. The countries with higher stds of living than ours, fewer bankruptcies pay higher rates. Would I pay a higher rate for better services? Yes. We did so when we moved back to Calif. from Oregon.

yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

Indeed, taxes are payments due for services rendered, and most of us get fairly good value for our money. I can put my money in the bank and know its safe; I can get a pretty good education at public expense; I can run a business and have a selection of literate and educated candidates; I can travel on government provided roads and fly on airlines which have security provided by the government; if I (or anyone in my family) gets really sick, there is somewhat of a safety net to provide for them (and it will be better); my shores are kept relatively safe from foreign invaders; my mail is delivered regularly; my food is inspected for identity and wholesomeness; not tomention the public health benefits and multiple others. Yes, there are problems and there are abuses and wastes, but I still see it as a net positive, something worth paying for. We should demand value for what we get and should have a say in what our money is spent on, but let's not forget--we are only as secure as the least among us.

[Econoline]

Well said, Big RR.

[oldr_n_wsr]

So how much of your/my/our salary (percentage wise) do you think is enough for the government to take given what they "do" for us?

[Big RR]

Government does nothing "for" us; it uses the money we provide to it to provide us with the benefits we say we want. It's not matter of how much of my salary is enough or too much,it's what the value of those benefits are, and that's an assessment that needs to be made first. And while we're at it,let's not discount peace of mind; I pay a lot for health insurance that (thankfully) I rarely use, but I'm happy it's there if I ever need it. A lot of benefits are that way.

[Guinevere]

Just for the record, I voted "yes" on the two property tax increases for my town in the last three years. Monies mostly destined for our schools, and that's with no children in the school system. But I believe education should be a priority. Since then, our schools have received national attention for the improvements made.

[Big RR]

I usually do as well, and my kids have been out of the system for a few years. But I did vote against a special budget request to provide the athletic fields with artificial turf.

[Econoline]

I recall there was a bumper sticker going around a few years ago which read something like "IF YOU THINK EDUCATION IS TOO EXPENSIVE, TRY IGNORANCE."

[Guinevere]

I usually do as well, and my kids have been out of the system for a few years. But I did vote against a special budget request to provide the athletic fields with artificial turf.

Seems that is a recurring issue. One of the neighboring towns had a vote on it last year, and another this year.

[Jarlaxle]

And BTW, your math is very very very fuzzy. You're lumping together tax rates that shouldn't get lumped together (for example, you don't pay 20-30% federal income tax on every dollar you earn. Some dollars aren't taxed at all, many are taxed at a lower rate). Plus you're ignoring exemptions and deductions, which reduces your effective tax rate that much more. I'm sure you are not paying 60% of what you earn to any government, and making shit like that up doesn't do any argument any good.

Ok lets do the math.
20-30% in income tax to the feds be it soc sec, medi-whatever and regular income tax. Can we agree on that? Lets take 25% thats in the middle.
Lets say I make $100K (not far off) so the feds let me keep $75K.
NY State takes 7% so now I get to keep $69750.
Already I have paid 32% of my pay in taxes to the feds and state.
Then we subtract over $7500 for property taxes and now we are down to $62250 which is about 40% in taxes paid.
Not that I have $62K+ because a bunch of it went towards the health plan, somewhere in the 10K range but that's before taxes not that the gov cares as I really haven't dropped down in the tax bracket.
But now it gets a little complicated.
Sales tax (of which only groceries are not subject to) is 8.625%. So other than food, I pay that rate.
On top of that I pay over 26 cents per gallon of gas in NY taxes and thats just the state. The county collects another 4% per dollar on top of that (not per gallon, per dollar. they did say that when a gallon goes over $3 they were not going to collect above that, but they never redid their tax tables to reflect that so that is another lie and they continue to collect on the higher cost. Gas is now $3.95 per gallon).

So maybe 50% of every dollar I earned might be a little more reasonable as opposed to the 60%. But I would doubt that les than 50% of my money goes to some sort of tax be it fed payroll, state payroll, property, sales, gasoline, etc taxes. And to me, a gov (general gov from local to feds) taking 50% of what someone earns is ridiculous. I may join the illegals and go off the books.

Dude, you REALLY need to get the hell out of that area!

Honestly, I'm seriously considering selling my house. It has gotten to the point where I could get a nice apartment for just what I am paying in property taxes! It's just not worth it anymore.

[Jarlaxle]

Just for the record, I voted "yes" on the two property tax increases for my town in the last three years. Monies mostly destined for our schools, and that's with no children in the school system. But I believe education should be a priority. Since then, our schools have received national attention for the improvements made.

Of course you did. People like you are why my property taxes have quadrupled in three years!

And...the schools still suck, the roads still aren't plowed (though that's more a state issue), and the town still does NOTHING ELSE useful with the money!

[Jarlaxle]

I recall there was a bumper sticker going around a few years ago which read something like "IF YOU THINK EDUCATION IS TOO EXPENSIVE, TRY IGNORANCE."

But we get both: a heart-stoppingly expensive school system that churns out idiots, morons, and dullards!

[Guinevere]

Just for the record, I voted "yes" on the two property tax increases for my town in the last three years. Monies mostly destined for our schools, and that's with no children in the school system. But I believe education should be a priority. Since then, our schools have received national attention for the improvements made.

Of course you did. People like you are why my property taxes have quadrupled in three years!

And...the schools still suck, the roads still aren't plowed (though that's more a state issue), and the town still does NOTHING ELSE useful with the money!

First of all, speak for your own town and your own state. Massachusetts has the best school system in the country, and the best educated kids and adults. God knows what Rhody has. And my town's high school is a blue-ribbon school - one of the best in the state.

I find it very unlikely property taxes have quadrupled in three years, and if so, i bet its not all due to rate increases. My property taxes have gone up about 10-15% in three years, some of which have been rate, some of which have been valuation. Still, it's less than a cup of coffee a day.

Oh yeah, and my streets are plowed, the storm rubble removed, my town light plant had our power back long before any of the surrounding fancier towns had theirs up and running, and we run a kick ass small library, several harbors, and provide a myriad of other services.

[Jarlaxle]

You're right, I checked...they haven't quadrupled in 3 years. They only went up about 350%. The "valuation" of my house went up plenty...but, of course, everyone knows that is a fantasy. (If I could get 75% of the official "value" for it, I'd be ecstatic...half would be more realistic.) I'm seriously considering dumping the house...it's just not worth it anymore.

Town streets were OK (but the major roads, which are the state's responsibility, were bad bordering on criminal negligence), the library is minuscule (and funded by a trust, not the town), there are ZERO services. I get NOTHING from the town...except reamed.

Texas is looking better by the day...so is North Dakota.

[Joe Guy]

You're right, I checked...they haven't quadrupled in 3 years. They only went up about 350%. The "valuation" of my house went up plenty...but, of course, everyone knows that is a fantasy. (If I could get 75% of the official "value" for it, I'd be ecstatic...half would be more realistic.) I'm seriously considering dumping the house...it's just not worth it anymore.

I don't know anything about your state, but in California if you believe your home is worth less than its assessed price you can go to your County Assessor and have it reappraised. But you have to be careful because they could assess it at an even higher price and then you're stuck with it.

[Econoline]

You're right, I checked...they haven't quadrupled in 3 years. They only went up about 350%. The "valuation" of my house went up plenty...but, of course, everyone knows that is a fantasy. (If I could get 75% of the official "value" for it, I'd be ecstatic...half would be more realistic.) I'm seriously considering dumping the house...it's just not worth it anymore.

I don't know anything about your state, but in California if you believe your home is worth less than its assessed price you can go to your County Assessor and have it reappraised. But you have to be careful because they could assess it at an even higher price and then you're stuck with it.

Same thing in Illinois. If you can find comparable properties with lower assessed prices and/or lower recorded sales prices, you've got a pretty good case and a pretty good chance of success.