Enough Already....

[MajGenl.Meade]

... I guess you print them out first then?

[Joe Guy]

Yeah, well I won't be convinced until I read what Brad DeLong and Paul Krugman have to say about it and tell me what I should think...

I don't wipe my butt without consulting Brad and Paul ....

Brad and Paul are educated. Ronald Reagan was an actor.

Only a mental midget would not grasp the self evident.

yrs,

joguyto

[Joe Guy]

... I guess you print them out first then?

If so, then this may be a good product for you...

[rubato]

You're lucky not to have known the priest at the church I grew up in. "First class asshole" only begins to describe it.

Fond memory, eh?

yrs,
rubato

[Crackpot]

Not many would dispute the fact. He played a large role in me and many others losing the faith.

Something about his need to constantly express his perceived superiority over everyone else

[rubato]

Always riding you, eh?

yrs,
rubato

[TPFKA@W]

My ex converted to the Catholic church. That they accepted him proves how evil they all are.

[oldr_n_wsr]

the positions of the RC church on things such as birth control and homosexuality (however earnestly held) have caused countless millions great harm

I would venture to guess, based on the people I know who proclaim to be Catholics, that most do not adhear, nor agree with the Catholics Churches "rules" regarding birth control and homosexuality. While they subscribe to the faith, I believe they think those things are personal choices. How else can you explain only 2 or 3 children in a family that supposedly uses no birth control? How can you explain the parents accepting their childs homosexuality but still go to a Catholic church?

I know there are plenty of "parishoners" who subscribe to the teachings and are orthedox about them, but I think the odds are that it is more al-a-cart when it comes to these personal choices.

Otherwise we would see mor 5+ children families. We ldsee more gay children thrust from their homes. And what I see is both on a major decline even in devout Catholics.

Your mileage may vary.

[Big RR]

Indeed, oldr; but then the church promotes these views among the undeducated in the poorest areas, threatening eternal damnation if they don't comply. And many people in those areas don't have the eductation to question, nor the gumption to ignore, to disagree with the church's views or ignore them, resulting in overpopulation, suffering, and an unprecedented increase in AIDS/HIV.

[rubato]

In other words they are harmful to the degree they have any power over society either to command or to persuade.



yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

No, they are hamrful to the extent they use that power to promote harmful policies/philosophies. May with the power to command/presuade are never harmful. Indeed, a good number of these persons and insitutions may well be beneficial.

[oldr_n_wsr]

In other words they are harmful to the degree they have any power over society either to command or to persuade.
yrs,
rubato

So anyone with power either to command or persuade is harmful? Or are you judging others as to how much power and persuasion they may have?

No, they are hamrful to the extent they use that power to promote harmful policies/philosophies. May with the power to command/presuade are never harmful. Indeed, a good number of these persons and insitutions may well be beneficial.

I agree but to me, that doesn't seem to be what rubato was saying. He'll have to clarify.

To me he is saying, lions bad, sheep good.

[rubato]

In other words they are harmful to the degree they have any power over society either to command or to persuade.



yrs,
rubato

In other words they, the Roman Catholic Church, are harmful to the degree they have any power over society either to command or to persuade. Now that they are generally ignored in the educated parts of the 1st world they have no power to persuade and the central act of the enlightenment was to deprive them of any power over society to 'command'.


The most backwards countries socially and economically in western Europe in the 1970s were only those which still gave the RC church some power over society, Ireland and Spain. Both have improved a great deal now that the church has been made impotent. Ireland less so, but they continue to tear out the perverse influences of the church piece by piece.


yrs,
rubato

[oldr_n_wsr]

Thank you for the clarification.

[Big RR]

In other words they are harmful to the degree they have any power over society either to command or to persuade.



yrs,
rubato

In other words they, the Roman Catholic Church, are harmful to the degree they have any power over society either to command or to persuade. Now that they are generally ignored in the educated parts of the 1st world they have no power to persuade and the central act of the enlightenment was to deprive them of any power over society to 'command'.


The most backwards countries socially and economically in western Europe in the 1970s were only those which still gave the RC church some power over society, Ireland and Spain. Both have improved a great deal now that the church has been made impotent. Ireland less so, but they continue to tear out the perverse influences of the church piece by piece.


yrs,
rubato

No, I disagree; while the RC church has its problems, it has often been a source for social justice. Bishops and priests have used their positions to insist on rights for people oppressed by repressive governments, particularly in south and central america, have heped to organize trade unions to assure worker's rights, been at the forefront of some environmental issues, worked for land reform, etc. There, IMHO, their positioon to exert influence is a distinct positive. Indeed, I have worked with some organizations representing the interests of immigrants which were sponsored by the RC church, which have diligently worked to make people's lives better.

Things are rarely black and white, all good or all bad. Life is more complicated than that.

[Lord Jim]

Things are rarely black and white, all good or all bad. Life is more complicated than that.

Good luck trying to get rube to understand that...

[RayThom]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/06/us/po ... hurch.html

Thirteen years of catholic education, with many relatives in the service of a catholic God, and after around the sixth grade, none of the church's teachings made any sense to me. It's an institution built on nothing more than punishment, eternal damnation, and hypocrisy.

(Key: baby = catholic church)

You don't know what's going on
You've been away for far too long
You can't come back and think you are still mine
You're out of touch my baby
My poor discarded baby
I said, baby, baby, baby, you're out of time

AMEN

[MajGenl.Meade]

That's a load of Kant

[rubato]

"....

No, I disagree; while the RC church has its problems, it has often been a source for social justice. Bishops and priests have used their positions to insist on rights for people oppressed by repressive governments, particularly in south and central america, have heped to organize trade unions to assure worker's rights, been at the forefront of some environmental issues, worked for land reform, etc. There, IMHO, their positioon to exert influence is a distinct positive. Indeed, I have worked with some organizations representing the interests of immigrants which were sponsored by the RC church, which have diligently worked to make people's lives better.

Things are rarely black and white, all good or all bad. Life is more complicated than that.

It has rarely and only recently been a source of social justice. During the Nazi era the few catholic priests who resisted the holocaust are notable by their rarity while those who collaborated actively or silently are notable by their far larger numbers. Their record is far more often to protect the powerful and rich against the weak and poor.

yrs,
rubato

PS my prior post used expressions of degree. It was not black and white. The catholic church is not entirely bad just mostly so. More so than a random aggregation of people.

[rubato]

This is what I would call "mostly bad":

"300,000 babies stolen from their parents - and sold for adoption: Haunting BBC documentary exposes 50-year scandal of baby trafficking by the Catholic church in Spain"

"Up to 300,000 Spanish babies were stolen from their parents and sold for adoption over a period of five decades, a new investigation reveals.

The children were trafficked by a secret network of doctors, nurses, priests and nuns in a widespread practice that began during General Franco’s dictatorship and continued until the early Nineties.

Hundreds of families who had babies taken from Spanish hospitals are now battling for an official government investigation into the scandal.
Several mothers say they were told their first-born children had died during or soon after they gave birth.
Identity crisis: Randy Ryder as a baby being cradled in a Malaga hospital in 1971 by the woman who bought him

Identity crisis: Randy Ryder as a baby being cradled in a Malaga hospital in 1971 by the woman who bought him

But the women, often young and unmarried, were told they could not see the body of the infant or attend their burial.

In reality, the babies were sold to childless couples whose devout beliefs and financial security meant that they were seen as more appropriate parents.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ic-church-
... "

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Spain.html

http://www.france24.com/en/20130119-spa ... ars-police
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/world ... d=all&_r=0
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-04-25/worl ... =PM:EUROPE

Juan Luis Moreno and Antonio Barroso grew up together as childhood friends. Their parents had different interests and different jobs, but the two families vacationed every year in the city of Zaragoza.

Decades later, when both were in their 40s, Moreno's dying father told his son the truth about those summer holidays: Both families were paying annual installments to a Catholic nun. He said the money paid for the illegal adoption of both boys as newborn babies.

"In fact, my dad was given a choice: boy or girl," Perez said. "They put it bluntly: This was a market for babies."

Moreno said his father told him he had paid roughly double the price of their family home, a huge sum for a working-class family.

The truth angered both men so much that they tracked down the nun - not Sister Maria Gomez - who facilitated the illegal adoption and confronted her. At first she denied receiving any payments, but then slowly remembers both of their adopted parents.