An idea regarding Nursing Homes....

[Crackpot]

My wife's last job was dealing with people in the position I described ( hospital end) they (the nursing home they mostly dealt with) didn't care a wit about personal dignity quality care or even the patients well being the just wanted these "people " back alive ASAP so they could keep getting their money

[TPFKA@W]

My wife's last job was dealing with people in the position I described ( hospital end) they (the nursing home they mostly dealt with) didn't care a wit about personal dignity quality care or even the patients well being the just wanted these "people " back alive ASAP so they could keep getting their money

I wonder if your wife worked in an LTAC, they are typically more urban where the quality of care is worse in general and since the cases are more acute they tend to have a good deal of turnover with staff. They blow chunks in my opinion. It is all about keeping folks alive on a string and milking some cash from the gov't.

Yeah I am with Guin oldr, judge not lest ye be judged and all that. I am guessing that you have no clue how virtually impossible and how financially draining it can be to keep a person in their home. If it was in anyway doable it would be done. Those who turn mom over to an LTC facility have usually drained every resource and nearly broken their own backs before the inevitable happens. But good luck if you have to give it a shot.

[oldr_n_wsr]

Sorry if I sounded like I don't care for those who do have a dependent "elder" and cannot take care of him/her. My mother in law is one such person and my father in law is another such person and we are taking as best care of them as we can. Thankfully they can stay in their own house and thankfully they are only 2 miles away so we can and do check on them daily. I am sorry if I sounded "holier than thou" as I did not mean to come across that way.

I don't know what the solution to "personal dignity" is as I don't think we would ever put my (or my wifes) parents in a home. We would "suck it up" as we did when we first had children and make do. I was operating a negative when my kids were born and woudl do so again as our parents situation presented the same.

And I have already been judged. I am scum according to my own ethics.

[Big RR]

Let me ask you oldr; if you were in a position where you could not care for yourself, would you really want to burden your children with that care? To have them bathe and dress you, change your diapers and clean your shit? Personally, I'd rather die than have either of my daughters do that, and I'd prefer an institutional facility (or living on the streets) to saddling anyone I know with that chore. I didn't have children to have someone care for me in my infirmity, I had thhem to let them go out and make there place in the world, hopefully make it a little bit better. I'll try to plan my end of life care on my own and not rely on them. I'm the father, not the child, and have no desire to be treated like one by my children; that's one of the most horrible things I can think of IMHO (even if they cheeerfully volunteered to do it).

[oldr_n_wsr]

I don't disagree with you BigRR. Myself I would rather have a heart attck and be done with it. That being said, I myself feel obligated to care for my elders. Mom is already dead but dad is 80 and I know some rough patches are ahead but thankfully he is still of sound mind and body. My inlaws are a different story. We spend much time over there and my wife tends to her mother who has siffered a stroke and a broken femur (right near the hip area) and cannot be left alone. We do employ a home aide (my sons girlfriend) but still I am there every other day and my wife is there every day doing things for them. As their children, we do have a sense of duty.

While I would rather "be done with it" when I get immobolized and out of the head, we usually don't have that choice. And as a son (or son-in-law) I don't see where it is something I should or would shy away from.

Sure it's a pain, but not anywhere near the pain (or joy) that I inflicted for 18+ years on them. They supported/nurtured me, now it's my (our) turn.
I'm already preparing and trying to figure out what room in my house to make into "their" room. Guess my man cave is gone before I barely got to use it.

[TPFKA@W]

I don't disagree with you BigRR. Myself I would rather have a heart attck and be done with it. That being said, I myself feel obligated to care for my elders. Mom is already dead but dad is 80 and I know some rough patches are ahead but thankfully he is still of sound mind and body. My inlaws are a different story. We spend much time over there and my wife tends to her mother who has siffered a stroke and a broken femur (right near the hip area) and cannot be left alone. We do employ a home aide (my sons girlfriend) but still I am there every other day and my wife is there every day doing things for them. As their children, we do have a sense of duty.

While I would rather "be done with it" when I get immobolized and out of the head, we usually don't have that choice. And as a son (or son-in-law) I don't see where it is something I should or would shy away from.

Sure it's a pain, but not anywhere near the pain (or joy) that I inflicted for 18+ years on them. They supported/nurtured me, now it's my (our) turn.
I'm already preparing and trying to figure out what room in my house to make into "their" room. Guess my man cave is gone before I barely got to use it.

Ok I said not to judge but I am afraid I am judging you Oldr. I don't mean this in any way to disrespect you or your opinion but I have to tell you from my perspective you could not seem more clueless or oblivious. It is fine that your in-laws are on their own with some outside asst. There are many many seniors who spend their lives out in their own homes. They are very fortunate. However not everyone gets the luck of seeing their senior years so uncomplicated. One day, God forbid, you could find yourself on the phone learning that your in-laws are suddenly setting the house on fire or got in the car for a short drive and wound up on I70 in Ohio driving down the wrong side of the road. As quickly as you can flip on a light switch things can go from reasonable to out of control. If one of them has a stroke are you prepared to do total care on an incapacitated adult? Remember that in addition to diapers they need around the clock care. You will have to retire early to do the care. You will not be able to leave them alone for a moment. You will need to wake up every 2 hours at night to clean and turn them. This could go one for a long time. In the mean time you are aging too. What if you have a heart attack and can't do the care any more? I have seen people face this challenge. Most fail ultimately and wind up seeking LTC.

[Guinevere]

Exactly @W -- it is easy to say "take care of them like they took care of you" in theory -- but not everyone has your factual situation.

My father has dimentia. His wife takes care of him for now -- he's reasonably capable of caring for himself, but does forgetful things and we don't know when that will cross the line into dangerous things. I live 600 miles away -- am I to drop my life, my career, my house, to go sit with him and keep him out of trouble? Or bankrupt myself paying for his care? My sister and I (she lives 400 miles away from him) already pay some of their bills, as we do with my Mother too (who has a heart condition and other ailments -- and lives at the other end of the east coast --- my parents are about 800 miles apart). In fact, I pay their bills at the expense of my own savings and security. And I give them as much time and attention as I can manage -- but I can't visit them every day and never will be able to do that unless they move up here (which is unlikely).

BTW: oldr -- I'm not judging you, and I don't think you are scum -- but I think you need to poke your head up and observe the rest of the world without judgment, and see what you find.

[Jarlaxle]

Jarl, for the sake of those who'd have to clean that up, please, just get Liz to slit your throat with one of her knives.

I would, willingly, if that wouldnt get her a murder charge. I'll do it outside with a tarp to contain the mess.

[oldr_n_wsr]

Sorry if I seem judgemental, that is not my intent at all. I know there are circumstances that can (and probably will) arise where we simply cannot care for our parents. To me though, I think people (especially those in my, the ME generation) pull the plug too quickly. Now I don't know anyone elses situation nor do I claim too. I know in our (my wife and I) situation, for now, we can and will continue to care as best we can. Grandma lived to 96yo and the last four were a horror, yet we still (my dad, my aunt and all of us grandchildren) did the best we could to keep her in a comfortable place (my aunts house) and always visited and even though grandma usually didn't recognise us, it was comforting to her. We did have outside help come in for hte hourly maintenance, but many times we (myself included) did those chores. As I said, I owe these people and will do my best to keep them comfortable even if that means bringing in outside help. But for now, we can, and do manage.
It's not for everyone, but I think with a little effort, it might be for more than there are.
Everyones mileage will vary.

[Gob]

Bit hard for me to look after my mother, she lives 12,000 miles away. Should I leave my family here in Aus and return to look after her? Should I expect them to come with me? If we do that who will look after Hen's mother here in Aus?

I'm hoping that when the time comes, and me mam loses her independence, one of my sisters will step up to the plate to look after her. I'd happily pay them a wage to do so.

[Long Run]

I do like Joe's original concept of how to better the chance that residents in nursing homes will be better taken care of. The cameras in residence have the problems people discussed. And it probably is just as impossible to have an ombudsman who regularly checks on the residents and the care they receive since one of the problems is the cost of care, and having someone check in more frequently would add to that cost. One possibility for helping some percentage of the nursing home population would be to encourage churches, schools, social service clubs and the like that have a public service component, to spend some of their volunteer time adopting "orphaned" nursing residents.

[Crackpot]

AW my wife worked at a hospital I forget the unit she was on but it mostly concerned caring for patients in a persistant vegetative state. (At least while they were admitted). The politics surrounding these poor souls many of who's bodies were actively trying to die (to join their minds) were kept "alive" either by families unwilling to let go or institutions making mo ey off them

[Econoline]

Internet access to only family members might be a way of seeing gthe quality of care, but it might also make for those same children to not come visit.

Good point.

[Joe Guy]

Internet access to only family members might be a way of seeing gthe quality of care, but it might also make for those same children to not come visit.

Good point.

I think the potential benefit outweighs the risk.

Speaking of good points, encouraging others to visit would be a good thing. Anything that gets more people to check in is good. That's an idea to build on.

[Big RR]

I don't disagree with you BigRR. Myself I would rather have a heart attck and be done with it. That being said, I myself feel obligated to care for my elders. Mom is already dead but dad is 80 and I know some rough patches are ahead but thankfully he is still of sound mind and body. My inlaws are a different story. We spend much time over there and my wife tends to her mother who has siffered a stroke and a broken femur (right near the hip area) and cannot be left alone. We do employ a home aide (my sons girlfriend) but still I am there every other day and my wife is there every day doing things for them. As their children, we do have a sense of duty.

While I would rather "be done with it" when I get immobolized and out of the head, we usually don't have that choice. And as a son (or son-in-law) I don't see where it is something I should or would shy away from.

Sure it's a pain, but not anywhere near the pain (or joy) that I inflicted for 18+ years on them. They supported/nurtured me, now it's my (our) turn.
I'm already preparing and trying to figure out what room in my house to make into "their" room. Guess my man cave is gone before I barely got to use it.

''
Oldr--I understand, but then what I was saying is that I would never want to burden my children with such care. Visiting and checking up on me? Certainly. Helping out as they can? Sure. But if andwhen I become incapable of taking care of myself, it would ony add to my anguish if my children were assuming the responsibility to care for me; it's not only something I'd discourange, it's something I absolutely do not want. Do you know how your inlaws feel about this?

[Lord Jim]

I haven't posted anything in this thread, but I have been following it with interest...

I haven't posted anything because frankly I see good points and valid arguments for both sides of the issues regarding elder care and the larger issue of cross generational obligation and responsibility...

When I see strong cases being made for both sides, it's sometimes tough for me to express a position...

This is one of those times....

But I wanted to pop in to compliment all of the participants in this thread for an excellent, thoughtful discussion of a very serious topic.

(Well, all of the participants except one of course; who pulled his usual routine.)

[TPFKA@W]

I haven't posted anything in this thread, but I have been following it with interest...

I haven't posted anything because frankly I see good points and valid arguments for both sides of the issues regarding elder care and the larger issue of cross generational obligation and responsibility...

When I see strong cases being made for both sides, it's sometimes tough for me to express a position...

This is one of those times....

But I wanted to pop in to compliment all of the participants in this thread for an excellent, thoughtful discussion of a very serious topic.

(Well, all of the participants except one of course; who pulled his usual routine.)

Oh thank God we have met with your approval I kept thinking, "Oh my God Jim has not offered an opinion on this, what must he be thinking?" I lost sleep over it last night I tell you.

[oldr_n_wsr]

Oldr--I understand, but then what I was saying is that I would never want to burden my children with such care. Visiting and checking up on me? Certainly. Helping out as they can? Sure. But if andwhen I become incapable of taking care of myself, it would ony add to my anguish if my children were assuming the responsibility to care for me; it's not only something I'd discourange, it's something I absolutely do not want. Do you know how your inlaws feel about this?

I, as you say, don't want to burden my children as I want them to have a life outside of worrying about me. I can only speak for myself and my wife is of similar mind. I do not know what the in-laws feel about this, but given that they are 1st gen italian and all the family stuck together and such, I don't think they feel our caring for them is something out of the ordinary. They did it for their elders and it's almost (more than almost) expected. While i hold no resentment for having to do this, sometimes we do have to say ENOUGH.

Just this weekend, dad wanted to have dinner with us twice and my wife and I had plans to go out together for a nice dinner, just us two. He got a little bothered and my wife got bothered because he got bothered. I mean it's not like she didn't go over there that day and she even got dinner ready for them. It's just that dad expects his daughters (there is my wife and her sister) to look afer them and make sure all is well and good.

Like you said, I don't want to burden my kids, but it's different now with a different generation.

[Lord Jim]

"Oh my God Jim has not offered an opinion on this, what must he be thinking?" I lost sleep over it last night I tell you.

I suspected as much @W, and compassionate soul that I am, I wanted to put your mind at ease....

[Big RR]

oldr--Well, even though you may not know exactly what they want, I think you have considered it, which is all any of us can do. One thing that really infuriates me is when I see children disregarding their parents' wishes, especially on things like end of life issues--I have a couple of friends whose siblings have kept their parents alive even though they know this is not what they would have wanted. People should have a say in what type of care they receive (personally, I think the final say in this issue). It's not easy to say goodbye and turn off the machines, but we should do what our parents wanted, not what makes us feel better. And, I think it's important to make our wishes clear; don't rely on a living will/advance directive , hospitals/physicians often disregard them if the next of kin request something different (andsometime pressure them to do so), make sure your children have an ubnderstanding of what you want. And, give a medical power of attorney to someone you can rely on to carry out these wishes.

As you believe this is what they want, I would say help as much as you can, but don't sacrifice your own sanity or life to cater to their whims. While people should have the right to have their wishes carried out, this does not extend to demanding tbhat others must give up everything to carry these wishes out. Of course, when people don't feel well, they can rapidly become unreasonable. Dn't feel guilty if the burden beomes toio much for you to handle and you have to get outside help and/or use an institution; as the Stones say, you can't always get what you want (this goes for parents and kids as well).