I May Not Be Terribly Bright, But How, Exactly ...

[Andrew D]

One of the greatest symbols of the "Cold war" was the Berlin Wall, Reagan told Gorbachev to "tear down this wall" he complied, we won...

Besides the fact that, as Econoline has observed, Gorbachev did not tear down the Berlin Wall -- nor did he order it torn down -- that "Reagan said do it, and it happened" view ignores intervening time and events.

Reagan said "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" on 12 June 1987.

Days passed. And still the wall was there.

Weeks passed. And still the wall was there.

Months passed. And still the wall was there.

Years passed. And still the wall was there.

The Reagan presidency ended. And still the wall was there.

Even the unofficial beginning of the destruction of the Berlin Wall began a year after George H. W. Bush was elected President. And the official beginning of the destruction of the Berlin Wall began more than half a year after that.

The "Reagan said it, so Gorbachev did it" view of the destruction of the Berlin Wall simply does not comport with the facts.

[Rick]

It's gone is a fact, Reagan said tear it down is a fact, Gorbachev by his lack of intervention allowed it to happen since he was ultimately in charge at the time, we still won...

[Rick]

History will be kind to Reagan, get past it...

[Rick]

BTW we got a ship board laser beam now...

[Andrew D]

Lord Jim apparently believes that my questions about Reagan and the Cold War are directed at him. Not so. He is, of course, the foremost exponent here of the "Reagan won the Cold War" view, but he is not alone.

For example, dales posted that Reagan "was the president that kicked the Soviet Union's asses into the dustbin of history." The same questions apply:

What, exactly did Reagan do that "kicked the Soviet Union's asses into the dustbin of history"?

And how, exactly, did whatever Reagan did constitute "kick[ing] the Soviet Union's asses into the dustbin of history"?

[Andrew D]

I stuck a pin through the heart of a voodoo doll of Fred. Years later, Fred died of a massive heart attack. That proves that by sticking a pin through the heart of a voodoo doll of Fred, I caused Fred to have a massive heart attack.

[dales]

What, exactly did Reagan do that "kicked the Soviet Union's asses into the dustbin of history"?

Outspent the ruskies on military spending.

[Sean]

There now follows a message from me to Kim Jong-Un. Message reads: "Pull your fucking head in sunshine!"

Now, when North Korea stop their silly posturing I will be taking full credit.

[Andrew D]

What, exactly did Reagan do that "kicked the Soviet Union's asses into the dustbin of history"?

Outspent the ruskies on military spending.

Did that force the USSR to increase its military spending? How so? If the USSR had not increased its military spending in response to Reagan's budget-busting military buildup, would that buildup have brought about the collapse of the USSR? How so?

[MajGenl.Meade]

I stuck a pin through the heart of a voodoo doll of Fred. Years later, Fred died of a massive heart attack. That proves that by sticking a pin through the heart of a voodoo doll of Fred, I caused Fred to have a massive heart attack.

There's no statute of limitations. You can expect the Califuzznia to be calling.

[dgs49]

Fucking stupid, unanswerable question, Andrew. Get over it.

[Rick]

I stuck a pin through the heart of a voodoo doll of Fred. Years later, Fred died of a massive heart attack. That proves that by sticking a pin through the heart of a voodoo doll of Fred, I caused Fred to have a massive heart attack.

You are guilty of murder turn yerself in.

BTW we now have a laser beam...

[Sean]

BTW we now have a laser beam...

Yes, but it's on board a ship whose name I find hardly inspirational...

[Lord Jim]

LOL

Unlike The Invincible or The Defiant...

More like "The USS Poofter"....

Not exactly a name that would strike terror in the heart of the enemy....






Sorry if that's a "politically incorrect" joke...deal with it....

[Rick]

It should have special significance to Lib...

[Andrew D]

Lord Jim's use of "pathological" to describe anyone's other than his own opinions of Reagan is not an assertion meriting consideration. It is merely comic relief.

[Andrew D]

As to Reagan's military buildup, it accomplished three things:

It hugely increased the national debt;

It enriched the people running the military-industrial complex; and

It prolonged the life of the Soviet Union.

That's right: Reagan's military buildup propped up the Soviet Union; it enabled the Soviet Union to last longer than it otherwise would have.

We all know that before Reagan's military buildup, the Soviet Union was already collapsing. So what did Reagan's military buildup do? It gave the government of the Soviet Union an external enemy to use as a distraction from its internal problems.

And it worked. Soviet citizens who were sick and tired of the Soviet government's handling of internal affairs were temporarily diverted into hatred of the US.

Reagan's military buildup helped the Soviet Union last longer than it otherwise would have. Bravo.

[dales]

Reagan's military buildup helped the Soviet Union last longer shorter than it otherwise would have. Bravo.

Matter of opinion is all.

[Lord Jim]

Gee whiz Andrew, here I am trying to get off one merry-go-round regarding the 2nd Amendment, (that was started with a reference to a "hobby horse" that was really a dead horse, and a flogged filly,) and here you come along in an apparent effort to entice me to hop aboard another one...

Involving yet another pummeled pony...(seeing as how it's Derby Day, it's a great day for all these horse analogies...the Merry-Go-Round thing works too...and congrats to Orb... )

I have to tell you, I'm not going to buy a ticket to this circular pony ride either....life is just too short....

Now, I know that will probably cause you to respond with something like, "Ah ha! Lord Jim said that because he has no way to effective way to respond! I win!" (Ignoring of course the fact that we have been over this, and over this, numerous times before...)

But I frankly don't care...

And I even don't care when you say things as ridiculous as this:

Reagan's military buildup helped the Soviet Union last longer than it otherwise would have.

Some claims are just so absurd that they're not even worth bothering with....

[Scooter]

"Absurd" would mean that it falls outside the realm of realistic possibility. Since history is replete with examples of dictatorial regimes attempting to shore up their support among the populace by propagandizing an external "threat", then the notion that this was the case in the last years of the Soviet Union is hardly "absurd".

Even you were recently speculating that this was precisely the motivation behind the recent actions of the nutjob from North Korea. Why is it "absurd" that Soviet leaders would use the perception of external threats to the regime to the same end?