A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of

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Liberty1
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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

Post by Liberty1 »

Restrictions on type of guns that can be owned, restrictions on number of weapons that can be owned, restrictions on magazine size, background checks that would prevent someone cohabiting with known crazies to own any gun at all. For a start.
Restricting ownership of guns has killed millions more people that all legally owned firearms put together.
I am someone who, unlike you, believes that human life has value.
I believe that liberty and freedom have more value. As do millions of people who have died fighting for it.
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Scooter
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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

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Liberty1 wrote:Restricting ownership of guns has killed millions more people that all legally owned firearms put together.
More NRA koolaid. Keep on drinking.
I believe that liberty and freedom have more value.
Liberty and freedom as you choose to define them. How about the liberty and freedom not to live in a society where school children are mowed down by the dozens because gun nuts are in charge of defining public policy?
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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

Post by Rick »

Restricting ownership of guns has killed millions more people that all legally owned firearms put together.
I'm a gun owner, but I gotta say that sounds more like a slogan that anything backed up by evidence...
Sometimes it seems as though one has to cross the line just to figger out where it is

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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

Post by Liberty1 »

I'm a gun owner, but I gotta say that sounds more like a slogan that anything backed up by evidence...
More spoon feeding, OK
After the Soviet Union dissolved, evidence from the Soviet archives became available, containing official records of the execution of approximately 800,000 prisoners under Stalin for either political or criminal offenses, around 1.7 million deaths in the Gulags and some 390,000 deaths during kulak forced resettlement – for a total of about 3 million officially recorded victims in these categories
Stalin's attempts to solidify his position as leader of the Soviet Union lead to an escalation in detentions and executions of various people, climaxing in 1937–38 (a period sometimes referred to as the "Yezhovshchina," or Yezhov era), and continuing until Stalin's death in 1953. Around 700,000 of these were executed by a gunshot to the back of the head,[87] others perished from beatings and torture while in "investigative custody"[88] and in the Gulag due to starvation, disease, exposure and overwork.[89]

Arrests were typically made citing counter-revolutionary laws, which included failure to report treasonous actions and, in an amendment added in 1937, failing to fulfill one's appointed duties. In the cases investigated by the State Security Department of the NKVD (GUGB NKVD) October 1936 – November 1938, at least 1,710,000 people were arrested and 724,000 people executed.
In 1930s, the NKVD conducted a series of national operations, which targeted some "national contingents" suspected in counter-revolutionary activity.[73] A total of 350,000 were arrested and 247,157 were executed.[94] Of these, the Polish operation, which targeted the members of already non-existing Polska Organizacja Wojskowa appears to have been the largest, with 140,000 arrests and 111,000 executions
The first large-scale killings under Mao took place during land reform and the counterrevolutionary campaign. In official study materials published in 1948, Mao envisaged that "one-tenth of the peasants" (or about 50,000,000) "would have to be destroyed" to facilitate agrarian reform.[111] Actual numbers killed in land reform are believed to have been lower, but at least one million.[110][112]

The suppression of counterrevolutionaries targeted mainly former Kuomintang officials and intellectuals suspected of disloyalty.[113] At least 712,000 people were executed, 1,290,000 were imprisoned in labor camps and 1,200,000 were "subject to control at various times
Benjamin Valentino says that the Great Leap Forward was a cause of the Great Chinese Famine and that the worst effects of the famine were steered towards the regime's enemies.[115] Those labeled as "black elements" (religious leaders, rightists, rich peasants, etc.) in any earlier campaign died in the greatest numbers, as they were given the lowest priority in the allocation of food.[115] In Mao's Great Famine, historian Frank Dikötter writes that "coercion, terror, and systematic violence were the very foundation of the Great Leap Forward" and it "motivated one of the most deadly mass killings of human history."[116] His research in local and provincial Chinese archives indicates the death toll was at least 45 million, and that "In most cases the party knew very well that it was starving its own people to death."[117] In a secret meeting at Shanghai in 1959, Mao issued the order to procure one third of all grain from the countryside. He said: “When there is not enough to eat people starve to death. It is better to let half of the people die so that the other half can eat their fill.”[117] Dikötter estimates that at least 2.5 million people were summarily killed or tortured to death during this period
Sinologists Roderick MacFarquhar and Michael Schoenhals estimate that between 750,000 and 1.5 million people were killed in the violence of the Cultural Revolution, in rural China alone.[119] Mao's Red Guards were given carte blanche to abuse and kill the revolution's enemies.[120] For example, in August 1966, over 100 teachers were murdered by their students in western Beijing alone
Researcher Craig Etcheson of the Documentation Center of Cambodia suggests that the death toll was between 2 and 2.5 million, with a "most likely" figure of 2.2 million. After 5 years of researching some 20,000 grave sites, he concludes that "these mass graves contain the remains of 1,112,829 victims of execution."[127]
You probably get the idea. Its really not hard to find this stuff.
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Scooter
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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

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And you can link any of this to restrictions on gun ownership how, exactly?







Didn't think so.

Guess what, there are countries that have severe restrictions on firearms ownership that did not massacre millions of their citizens. Correlation ≠ causation.

But keep drinking that koolaid, like the obedient little sheep that you are.
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Rick
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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

Post by Rick »

Again, slogans.

I defer to the post by Scoot...
Sometimes it seems as though one has to cross the line just to figger out where it is

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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

Post by Liberty1 »

And you can link any of this to restrictions on gun ownership how, exactly?

Those states did not allow private gun ownership like the US. Hasn't happened here.

Amazing how that works.
Guess what, there are countries that have severe restrictions on firearms ownership that did not massacre millions of their citizens. Correlation ≠ causation.
True, like Japan. So you now want to allow police access to your house for no cause like they do? To look for guns or anything else they want?

Different culture.
Again, slogans.
You still got nothing huh.
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Rick
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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

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I guess that makes 2 of us...
Sometimes it seems as though one has to cross the line just to figger out where it is

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Scooter
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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

Post by Scooter »

Liberty1 wrote:
And you can link any of this to restrictions on gun ownership how, exactly?
Those states did not allow private gun ownership like the US. Hasn't happened here.
You might as well say it happened because they eat more rice than Americans, because it would make as much sense.

Why aren't millions of people being slaughtered in Romania, when private gun ownership is all but outlawed? Why is it not happening in Poland, where gun laws are so restrictive that only 1% of the population owns any type of gun?

And funny how Nazi Germany actually loosened restrictions on gun ownership before going on to murder millions of people. Amazing how that works.
Guess what, there are countries that have severe restrictions on firearms ownership that did not massacre millions of their citizens. Correlation ≠ causation.
True, like Japan. So you now want to allow police access to your house for no cause like they do? To look for guns or anything else they want?

Different culture.
First, what does one have to do with the other? Second, where do you get this bullshit?

From the Constitution of Japan:
Article 35. The right of all persons to be secure in their homes, papers and effects against entries, searches and seizures shall not be impaired except upon warrant issued for adequate cause and particularly describing the place to be searched and things to be seized, or except as provided by Article 33. Each search or seizure shall be made upon separate warrant issued by a competent judicial officer.
Perhaps it's time you realize that whatever "sources" you rely on for your "facts" are not serving you well.

Or not, because, hey, I'm not too proud to continue shooting fish in barrels.
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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

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A Police State
Illegal gun possession, like illegal drug possession, is a consensual offense. There is no victim to complain to the police. Accordingly, in order to find illegal guns, the Japanese police are given broad search and seizure powers. The basic firearms law permits a policeman to search a person's belongings if the officer judges there is 'sufficient suspicion that a person is carrying a fire-arm, a sword or a knife' or if he judges that a person 'is likely to endanger life or body of other persons judging reasonably from his abnormal behavior or any other surrounding circumstances'.[32] Once a weapon is found, the policeman may confiscate it. Even if the confiscation is later admitted to be an error, the firearm is sometimes not returned.[33](p.29)

In practice, the special law for weapons searches is not necessary, since the police routinely search at will. They ask suspicious characters to show them what is in their purse or sack.[34] In the rare cases where a policeman's search (for a gun or any other contraband) is ruled illegal, it hardly matters; the Japanese courts permit the use of illegally seized evidence.[35] And legal rules aside, Japanese, both criminals and ordinary citizens, are much the more willing than their American counterparts to consent to searches and to answer questions from the police.[36]'

Home visit is one of the most important duties of officers assigned to police...' explains the Japanese National Police Agency. In twice-a-year visit, officers fill out Residence Information Cards about who lives where and which family member to contact in case of emergency, what relation people in the house have to each other, what kind of work they do, if they work late, and what kind of cars they own.[37] The police also check on all gun licensees, to make sure that no gun has been stolen or misused, that the gun is securely stored, and that the licensees are emotionally stable.[38]

The close surveillance of gun owners and householders comports with the police tradition of keeping close tabs on many private activities.[39] For example, the nation's official year-end police report includes statistics like 'Background and Motives for Girls' Sexual Misconduct'. The police recorded 9,402 such incidents in 1985, and determined that 37.4 per cent of the girls had been seduced, and the rest had sex 'voluntarily'. The two leading reasons for having sex voluntarily were 'out of curiosity' for 19.6 per cent, and 'liked particular boy', for 18.1 per cent.[40] The fact that police keep records on sex is simply a reflection of their keeping an eye on everything, including guns. Every person is the subject of a police dossier.[41]

Almost everyone accepts the paradigm that the police should be respected. Because the police are so esteemed, the Japanese people co-operate with their police more than Americans do. Co-operation with the police also extends to obeying the laws which almost everyone believes in. The Japanese people, and even the large majority of Japanese criminals, voluntarily obey the gun controls.

There is no right to bear arms in Japan. In practical terms, there is no right to privacy against police searches. Other Western-style rights designed to protect citizens from a police state are also non-existent or feeble in Japan.

After the arrest, a suspect may be detained without bail for up to 28 days before the prosecutor brings the suspect before a judge.[42] Even after the 28 day period is completed, detention in a Japanese police station may continue on a variety of pretexts, such as preventing the defendant from destroying evidence. Rearrest on another charge, bekken taihö, is a common police tactic for starting the suspect on another 28 day interrogation process. 'Rearrest' may (p.30)occur while the suspect is still being held at the police station on the first charge. Some defendants may be held for several months without ever being brought before a judge.[43] Courts approve 99.5 per cent of prosecutors' requests for detentions.[44]

Criminal defense lawyers are the only people allowed to visit a suspect in custody, and those meetings are strictly limited. In the months while a suspect is held prisoner, the defense counsel may see his or her client for one to five meetings lasting about 15 minutes each. Even that access will be denied if it hampers the police investigation. While under detention, suspects can be interrogated 12 hours a day, allowed to bathe only every fifth day, and may be prohibited from standing up, lying down, or leaning against the wall of their jail cells.[45] Amnesty International calls the Japanese police custody system a 'flagrant violation of United Nations human rights principles'.[46]

The confession rate is 95 per cent.[47] As a Tokyo police sergeant observes, 'It is no use to protest against power'.[48] Suspects are not allowed to read confessions before they sign them, and suspects commonly complain that their confession was altered after signature. The police use confession as their main investigative technique, and when that fails, they can become frustrated and angry. The Tokyo Bar Association states that the police routinely 'engage in torture or illegal treatment'. The Tokyo Bar is particularly critical of the judiciary for its near-total disinterest in coercion during the confession process. 'Even in cases where suspects claimed to have been tortured and their bodies bore physical traces to back their claims, courts have still accepted their confessions'.[49]

In Japan, the legal system is, in effect, an omnipotent and unitary state authority. All law enforcement administrators in Japan are appointed by the National Police Agency and receive their funding from the NPA. Hence, the police are insulated from complaints from politicians or other citizens.[50] There is hardly any check on the power of the state, save its own conscience.

What does the breadth of police powers have to do with gun controls? Japanese gun controls exist in a society where there is little need for guns for self-defense. Police powers make it difficult for owners of illegal guns to hide them. Most importantly, the Japanese criminal justice system is based on the Government possessing the inherent authority to do whatever it wishes. In a society where almost everyone accepts nearly limitless, unchecked Government power, people do not wish to own guns to resist oppression or to protect themselves in case the criminal justice system fails.

Extensive police authority is one reason the Japanese gun control system works. Another reason is that Japan has no cultural history of gun ownership by citizens.(p.31)
Last edited by Liberty1 on Thu May 02, 2013 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Liberty1
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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

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Man somethings weired with this editor, can't highlight anything.

Anyway continueing.
Japan's gun control does play an important role in the low Japanese crime rate, but not because of some simple relation between gun density and crime. Japan's gun control is one inseparable part of a vast mosaic of social control. Gun control underscores the pervasive cultural theme that the individual is subordinate to society and to the Government. The same theme is reflected in the absence of protection against Government searches and prosecutions. The police are the most powerful on earth, partly because of the lack of legal constraints and particularly because of their social authority.
As I said, different culture. Certainly non-American.
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dales
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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

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Yo lib one.....you live in new mex.....go out and buy a shit load of weaponry (hell, I think you can lawfully own a full auto boom boom if yer willing to pay enuf bread and jub thru enuf hoops) and have a blast.

Until then, spare us your half-baked alarmist clap trap about what you believe is true and actually isn't.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

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Nice if you could source it lib1
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

Liberty1
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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

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[Copyright © 1993 Asia Pacific Law Review, City Polytechnic of Hong Kong; David B. Kopel. Originally published as 2 Asia Pac. L. Rev. 26-52 (1993)
I don't give a damn for a man that can only spell a word one way. Mark Twain

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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

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Until then, spare us your half-baked alarmist clap trap about what you believe is true and actually isn't.
History and facts are on my side.

Go spark up another one and stick your head back in the sand.
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dales
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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

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There's more sand in new mex than here, have at it kiddo and find some peyote buttons to gnaw on while your at it.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

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New mexico sand


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dales
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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

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We have that too.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


yrs,
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Liberty1
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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

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True, but your picture would have about 200 people in the forground.
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dales
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Re: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security

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Not really.

You know as much about CA as you do about firearms legislation.

Your collective inability to acknowledge this obvious truth makes you all look like fools.


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