Newtie embraces evil.

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loCAtek
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by loCAtek »

loCAtek wrote:
Jarlaxle wrote:Pearl Harbor and 9/11 is no comparison. One was a military strike against a purely military target. The other was a terrorist attack against a purely civilian target.

That mosque is no different than a memorial to German WW2 dead at Treblinka or Dachau.
Except that Al Qaeda are fundamentalist/fanatical Sunnis, and Feisal Abdul Rauf, CEO of Cordoba Initiative, is an Arab-American Sufi.

Sufi mysticism has long exercised a fascination upon the Western world, and especially its orientalist scholars.[65] Figures like Rumi have become household names in the United States, where Sufism is perceived as quietist and less political.[65]

The Islamic Institute in Mannheim, Germany, which works towards the integration of Europe and Muslims, sees Sufism as particularly suited for interreligious dialogue and intercultural harmonisation in democratic and pluralist societies; it has described Sufism as a symbol of tolerance and humanism – undogmatic, flexible and non-violent.[66]
Wiki[/quote]

Big RR
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by Big RR »

Lord Jim wrote:
all true, but if I were japanese, I'd be uncomfortable--
Big RR, I sincerely hope that you're not suggesting that would be a good reason not to show the film....

I rather doubt that if we were talking about a graphic film shown before a tour of an American Indian Memorial (or a slave memorial) that you would suggest that it should be sanitized in order to avoid hurting the feelings of white people.

ETA:

Frankly I don't see anything wrong with folks being made a a little "uncomfortable" about unfortunate chapters in their national history. Perhaps it will help to make sure those kinds of behaviors are avoided in the future.

Which is completely different from expecting people who were not even born at the time to feel "guilty" over things they had nothing to do with....Which is why I'm always adamantly opposed to the moronic PC "apologies"....

If it makes someone feel better, or morally superior to want to "apologize" for things they weren't involved in, (like slavery or the treatment of the Indians) then by all means let them do so, as individual citizens, (or as a group if they wish) go ahead...knock yerself out....

But I do not want my government "apologizing" on my behalf for things I had absolutely nothing to do with, thank you very much. I find it both ludicrous and offensive.

Why should we impose on ourselves the concept of "collective guilt" (especially when you're talking about completely different points in time) that we have consistently rejected imposing on others?
Not at all Jim; I don't recall specifics, and there may well have been things I would have done differently, but it seems to be fairly factual. Edited to add: History is history, regardless of how uncomfortable it is to recognize it. I merely pointed out that the film could and did make some appear a bit uncomfortable, while it stirred the passions of others--like my daughter. The hatchet is not fully buried nor will it (or should it IMHO) ever be. The same is true for other uncomfortable facts in history.

As for apologies, for the most part i agree with you, but IMHO if any of us have directly benefitted from the policies or actions at the expense of others, it is disingenuous to say we had nothing to do with it. If my grandfather stole your grandfather's money and my family is now rich because of that, my living that lifestyle does "have something to do with it". Is an apology approriate/necessary? It depends on a lot of things.

Likewise, if an innocent man is railroaded by the criminal justice system and convicted because of wrongdoing, see no problem with the government apologizing on behalf of the state/country even though I had nothing to do with it.

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Sue U
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by Sue U »

Re Cordoba House: How about if everyone who doesn't live in Manhattan -- and more specifically, everyone who doesn't live below 14th Street -- just STFU?

As has already been pointed out, there are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world (about 750,000 or so in the five boroughs alone); out of those 1.6 billion, a couple dozen assholes -- none of whom had any connection to the NYC Muslim community, BTW -- committed an unspeakable act of mass murder. How are these assholes in any way representative of the Cordoba House, or vice versa? Why isn't the mosque that's actually inside the Pentagon even more of an affront to the protestors?

NYC is a very diverse and crowded place; real estate in Manhattan is at a premium and the Burlington Coat Factory is not any kind of national memorial. Two blocks in NYC might as well be a world away. (As my brother used to say about living in Manhattan, "If you can't find it within six blocks of your house, it doesn't exist.") This whole "mosque controversy" is simply bigotry inflamed for political gain in a cynical game of pandering to fear and hate.

Show me your Metrocard or GTFO.
GAH!

Big RR
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by Big RR »

sue, don't you live in the Philly area? :D

FWIW, I think this dialogue has to be broader than just NYC as it impacts our entire nation and the way we recognize and embrace freedom of religion. Personally, even if every person in NYC opposed the mosque based on bigotry and hatred it would not be the end of the discussion. Just like it wasn't when those in some southern states sought to prevent black students from entering their schools and universities, or eat at their lunch counters. Our nation guarantees certain freedoms to all, including those we may not like; to do any less would merely be the tyrrany of the majority--mobocracy.

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Sue U
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by Sue U »

Big RR wrote:sue, don't you live in the Philly area? :D
Yeah, but one of my offices is in Manhattan. (In fact, our building was covered with debris from the WTC even though we were down at the other end of Wall St.; fortunately, my new firm's office is in Midtown. :lol:)
Big RR wrote:Just like it wasn't when those in some southern states sought to prevent black students from entering their schools and universities, or eat at their lunch counters.
Um, isn't this kind of exactly the opposite? It's more like a bunch of Southern segregationists coming to NYC to prevent blacks from eating at lunch counters.
GAH!

Big RR
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by Big RR »

Um, isn't this kind of exactly the opposite? It's more like a bunch of Southern segregationists coming to NYC to prevent blacks from eating at lunch counters.
Perhaps, but there is local opposition as well. And my point is that home rule doesn't trump everything; prejudice and intolerance based on relgion should not and cannot be tolerated. It is a national issue, not a local one; and while I'd like nothing better than to silence some of the yahoos I've seen railing against the mosque, I also recognize that everyone has the right to speak out on national issues. Sure it can get tedious, but no one group, local or national, gets to trump the bill of rights.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by Lord Jim »

I agree with Big RR on this specific point...

It is legitimately a fit topic for national debate. 9/11 was an attack on the United States, not just the residents of lower Manhattan....

Ground Zero is a location of national significance.
ImageImageImage

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loCAtek
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by loCAtek »

Artist Rendition of Park51;

Image



...which Wiki says will not even be visible from Ground Zero.

Grim Reaper
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by Grim Reaper »

FOX News is being rather quiet about a key bit of information in their campaign against the mosque. The person funding the mosque is also part owner of FOX News. They keep alluding to him, but never by name.

Is FOX News evil, or just stupid?

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Gob
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by Gob »


Can I opt for "both" on that question?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Lord Jim
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by Lord Jim »

I'm curious....

What is it that makes some folks seem to be believe that everyone would think that building a Mosque two blocks from Ground Zero was a swell idea, if it just weren't for Fox News?
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rubato
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by rubato »

It is a swell idea to treat Moslems with the same respect for their rights as citizens and residents of the United States that we give to citizens of all religions especially when the rest of the world, including the rest of the Moslem world, are watching.

It is an act both self-destructive and stupid to pander to hatred and ignorance for minor electoral advantage, as Newtie and most of the party of Karl Rove is doing, but it is consistent with their history. They are swinishingly exploiting the existing hatreds of homosexuals, Moslems and immigrants.

yrs,
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by Grim Reaper »

Lord Jim wrote:I'm curious....

What is it that makes some folks seem to be believe that everyone would think that building a Mosque two blocks from Ground Zero was a swell idea, if it just weren't for Fox News?
It's only because of people like FOX News that there's any implication that building a mosque is a bad idea.

These people don't care about the truth. They care about ratings, and fear gives them ratings. They promote fear whenever they can, and plenty of people are afraid of Islam right now. So they follow the money and spread fear about Islam, just to earn themselves more money. Look at what they've done by very deliberately hiding the identity of the person funding the mosque when doing so makes them look either stupid or incompetent to anyone who does their own research.

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loCAtek
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

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Frankly, the best excuse for this uproar came from an Inter-faith Group (that I can't recall the name of) They said; When times are tough, people start looking for a scapegoat to vent their frustrations on.'

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Long Run
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by Long Run »

Grim Reaper wrote:[
These people don't care about the truth. They care about ratings, and fear gives them ratings.
This is true with all media -- whatever sells is worthy of being on the news. I haven't followed this story very closely, but have wondered what the actual facts are, and post on our board provides some service in that regard. This article in Salon (take it knowing this reporter has a viewpoint as well) traces the arc of this story: http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_ ... ue_origins

It is a non-story if this new building is the muslim equivalent of a YMCA, being proposed by a mainstream American Muslim organization, and there are already mosques in the neighborhood, and the Cordoba House is not actually visible from Ground Zero with the 2 blocks being actually quite a distance from Ground Zero.

If the slant on the story is that this is a statement that America is tolerant of all religions, or the opposite, then there is news to sell. While the story gained traction, apparently, from conservative side stream media, the mainstream media has run plenty of stories and editorials to cash in on the story (or non-story).

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Gob
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by Gob »

Radio presenter Rush Limbaugh compared the mosque with the idea of putting a Hindu shrine at the USS Arizona memorial at Pearl Harbor, later correcting himself to make clear he meant a Shinto shrine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11076846
Fucking moron and his audience of fucking morons,
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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loCAtek
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by loCAtek »

Well, as stated previously the Arizona Memorial is a shrine; and if not a Shinto shrine, it serves the same purpose. Loosely put, the Shinto religious system believes everything has a 'kami' or spirit; and you should respect living spirit (respect nature) and show honor to dead spirits with memorials and shrines.
A shrine is not like a temple or church, in that it's not to a place of worship of a god, rather a shrine is built to honor other kami(s). A Shinto shrine can be as small as a niche in a wall that marks remembrance of the descended, or stones stacked by the river as a homage to a local nature spirit.

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Gob
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by Gob »

Yes, well as I said Rush is a moron, so what'd you expect?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Gob
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by Gob »

LOL!! Now this should throw some salt on the wound and petrol on the fire :)

(Reuters) - The Muslim center planned near the site of the World Trade Center attack could qualify for tax-free financing, a spokesman for City Comptroller John Liu said on Friday, and Liu is willing to consider approving the public subsidy.

The Democratic comptroller's spokesman, Scott Sieber, said Liu supported the project. The center has sparked an intense debate over U.S. religious freedoms and the sanctity of the Trade Center site, where nearly 3,000 perished in the September 11, 2001 attack.

"If it turns out to be financially feasible and if they can demonstrate an ability to pay off the bonds and comply with the laws concerning tax-exempt financing, we'd certainly consider it," Sieber told Reuters.


The mosque's backers hope to raise a total of $70 million in tax-exempt debt to build the center, according to the New York Times. Tax laws allow such funding for religiously affiliated non-profits if they can prove the facility will benefit the general public and their religious activities are funded separately.

The bonds could be issued through a local development corporation created for this purpose, experts said.

The Islamic center would have to repay the bonds, which likely would be less expensive than taxable debt.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE67Q5BW20100827
.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Gob
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Re: Newtie embraces evil.

Post by Gob »

Sharif El-Gamal has had a surreal eight months. The 37-year-old property developer behind the Islamic community centre and prayer space near Ground Zero says he never anticipated the row over its location.

Living on the upper west side of Manhattan and visiting the Jewish community centre there gave him the vision for a similar project which would serve the people of lower Manhattan.

Now he has been labelled an Islamic supremacist who wants to build a victory mosque at the site where nearly 3,000 people were killed by al-Qaeda.

The man who thought of himself as a New Yorker has been thrust into the role of ambassador for Muslim Americans in what is a fraught, politicised, and emotionally charged arena.

"I never held myself or my faith accountable for the horrific events of 9/11," says Mr Gamal, standing outside 51 Park Place, the unremarkable-looking building two-and-a-half streets away from from Ground Zero.

"Today I am experiencing identity theft. Al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden have stolen my identity as a Muslim.

"I have been trying to understand why there is such ignorance, hatred, bigotry and fear of what we're trying to do. People are associating that we are a part of them, and we have nothing to do with such extremists."

In his smart new office downtown, Mr El-Gamal shows us the latest plans for Park 51. Only about 20% of the building at most will be a Muslim prayer space. The rest will include a swimming pool, classrooms, facilities for the elderly - even a culinary school.

But some of the media reporting of the project has suggested that a mega mosque is about to be built.

"It's not a mosque. It's not mega," he says. "It's going to have a strong and robust interfaith element, and it's going to serve the community of lower Manhattan."

The prayer space will help Muslims living and working in the financial district to fulfil their obligation to pray five times a day, he argues.

But opposition to the project has been vocal. Pamela Geller is a conservative blogger who led a rally against the Islamic centre on the anniversary of the the 11 September 2001 attacks.

"To build a 15-storey mega-mosque on the hallowed ground of Ground Zero is deeply offensive and deliberately provocative. It's part of the Islamic Supremacist agenda," she says after a busy day doing media interviews on the topic.

"I think it's spitting in my face and telling me it's raining. Look at all the divisiveness. It's an issue of common decency, of human compassion, and they should move it. To build a shrine to the very ideology that inspired the attack is healing? How?"

Mr Gamal claims there has been a campaign of deception involving inaccuracies and falsehoods about the proposed Islamic Centre.

"The narrative is one of deception, and what's been fuelling the fire is misinformation about the project," he says, which is why this week the young developer is doing media interviews for the first time since the row intensified.

But a group of relatives who lost their loved ones on 11 September is also calling for the centre to be moved, saying it is insensitive to have it where it is.

Mr Gamal says he is "very aware of the pain" they went through.

"But at the same time I need to let them know that this is one of the most competitive real estate markets in the world, and it took us four years to acquire this real estate," he says.

"This is about giving back to the community, this is about establishing our identity as Americans."

He insists that the centre will not take money from Hamas, as its critics have alleged, or any other militant group.

"We will not allow anyone to participate who doesn't share the values of Park 51. We plan on being a model for funds coming into a not for profit."

He says the centre should be built in three to five years, and when asked if he has raised the $100m it will cost to build, he says he has received "expressions of interest".

Mr Gamal is set on reclaiming his identity from those like Osama Bin Laden who he feels hijacked it.

He sees the community centre as a way to build trust, through pluralism, dialogue and tolerance.

"We have as Americans a right to be here, and we also have a responsibility to build bridges of reconciliation with the families of those who died on 11 September," he says.

"There is nothing I could say or do that would make their pain go away. But one of the things that is a fact is we are a part of this community. "

Six-hundred people a week already pray on the first floor of 51 Park Place, even before the site has been developed.

The Muslim prayer space by Ground Zero is a fact, even as the debate over its right to exist continues.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11434953
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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