I Knew That I Was Going To Like This Guy

[MajGenl.Meade]

I think there must have been a point in time (or the space time continuum) at which the supreme being did not know what was going to occur; that some sort of randomness or unpredictability existed at that point before the choice was made

Interesting. Why do you think that? It certainly knocks "omniscience" into a cocked hat, and if God is not omniscient then why would He know now if He didn't know "then" (which of course is not consistent with you rather good explanation of timelessness - or perhaps simultaneity? Absent omniscience (which I think is Andrew's corollary) then free will is truly free, even of being "known". Are you saying that God began to be semi-omniscient at some point?

Of course, all the beginnings of the universe were of inanimate objects which make no choices. Was it then that God didn't know what would happen? All the laws of nature were created by Him but He couldn't know how they'd work out? Sort of, He wrote the songs that made the whole world sing but didn't know the first verse, only the last one?

An intriguing thought, though hardly orthodox within the Christian ambit.

Meade

PS sorry Ray - you guarantee nothing - oh that's what you meant!

[Big RR]

Well Meade, you raise another point--does omniscience require that it be timeless, i.e. that god knows all things that occurred/may occur in and out of our universe/time, or is it sufficient to say god knows what will occur in our time because to god it already has occurred? I think the latter corresponds with how omniscience is generally presented. And even the bible hints that there are things god doesn't know--e.g. why would the devil enter into a wager involving Job if he knew god already knew what job would do? Not that this involves timelessness, but it does show that even the biblical writers didn't see omniscience as absolute; face it, the devil is never presented as stupid.

[Joe Guy]

If God knows everything that some humans give him credit for knowing, he must be very bored.

No surprise parties, no reason to expect anything new and He knows what's going to happen tomorrow and the day after...

[Gob]

Every time he stubs his toe; "Bugger, I knew I was going to do that!"

[Rick]

What shape is infinity?

A vest has how many sleeves?

A vest is finite, God is not...

[Crackpot]

But what if it was God's vest?

[dales]

If God knows everything that some humans give him credit for knowing, he must be very bored.

No surprise parties, no reason to expect anything new and He knows what's going to happen tomorrow and the day after...

He can always kick back and and marvel at His handiwork.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Every time he stubs his toe; "Bugger, I knew I was going to do that!"

So He is a Calvinist after all!

Big RR - omniscience is one of the perfect attributes of God. It means to have perfect and comprehensive knowledge of all things. I'm unsure as to what "all" means if it doesn't mean "all" If it is only knowledge of "some" things then it wouldn't be "omni" at all.

Your point re the Devil and Job has a flaw. Perhaps a couple of them. The first is that the Devil (like Andrew ) doesn't know that God is omniscient; He might be, and He might not be.

Secondly, God never tells the Devil that Job can or will withstand his evil wiles - He doesn't make a "bet" at all, although that is a popular way to misstate the case. God merely says "Job's a stand-up guy" and it's the Devil who says "Only because you look after him. But I could change that". "Go ahead", says God, "show me" and Satan gives it his best shot. The Devil may not be stupid (jury's out on that one) but he does persuade humans to take self-destructive decisions and paths, regardless of what God's attributes are. For all the Devil could tell (not being omniscient himself), God might have "known" that Job would fall also.

Satan's personal experience might be argued to have shown him that God doesn't know everything. Presumably since he started a rebellion in Heaven, he might have reasoned that his action took God by surprise - else why didn't God stop him? He just can't accept that his free will decision to rebel was/is/will be known by God because then it wouldn't be his choice, would it? (I speak of his viewpoint, not mine).

Another objection (amongst many) is that the story may just be that; a story or extended parable designed by God to teach lessons and not an actual history of an actual event.

I think we see the same kind of overwhelming hubris in the Devil when he tempts Jesus in the Wilderness. The fact is, if Jesus had not been the son of God, he would probably have fallen for the first temptation, let alone the second or third. But the Devil, even knowing that he is the son of God, still thinks it might work..... pride I think, plus the sheer way that the temper's character operates. He is, after all, (self) bound and determined to oppose God at every opportunity. And since he's perfectly capable of reading the Bible, he knows what's going to happen in the end because God has shared that piece of omniscience with everyone. Like so many others, he just won't believe it?

Meade

[Big RR]

Meade--that sounds like a wager between satan and god to me; god says, go ahead, show me. Granted, their was no money or other ante involved, but it is much like a bet between kids ("go ahead, I dare you to prove it")--. One would think god clearly cared about the outcome--unless you think god just let all those miseries be visited upon job for laughs. It was done to shut satan up. And yes, I agree it's a story, an allegory, and not a factual account, but then it's rather easy to claim that anything that supports your thesis is factual and should be taken as such, anything that is problematic is allegorical and not meant to be taken literally.

As for satan's rebellion, I think that is more part of literature than the bible. There's hardly much discussion of something that one thinks would have been as important as that.

As far as omniscience, I guess we'll just have to disagree.

[Rick]

As for satan's rebellion, I think that is more part of literature than the bible. There's hardly much discussion of something that one thinks would have been as important as that.

You really haven't ever actually read the Bible have you?

[Big RR]

You're really asking me that? Yes I have, many times. If you have cites to the story of the rebellion of satan and his followers, feel free to point them out; personally, I think your statement shows you wither haven't read much of the bible, or, maybe just the Cliff notes version? As best as I recall, there are some references to satan "falling" from heaven, and revalation contains some passages that hint at a rebellion, but no real description of it. Even the OT prophets don't talk very much about it. But if you know differently, feel free to educate me with the cites; take your time--google it if you want.

[dales]

One can "read" the Scriptures and without understanding given by The Holy Spirit, it is just so many words on a page.

[Big RR]

Perhaps, but little understanding is required to determine if details of the story of satan's attempted takeover of/expulsion from heaven are included within the pages of the bible or not; questioning whether I have ever "actually read" the bible, or even my understanding of it, are non answers to a simple question. Again, please direct me to specific citations in the bible that present this story with any clarity. Indeed, one can also claim to have understanding provided by the holy spirit, and not have any real understanding at all. As they said in A Fish Called Wanda, apes can read philosophy too, they just don't understand it.

[dales]

Understanding comes from knowing God via the Holy Spirit.

Unless one is born again, you won't understand it.

Really! Trust me on this!

I've been there and before the scales fell from the eyes, I was deaf, dumb and blind.

I give God the glory and do not boast!

[Big RR]

Indeed, but even then not all understandings are identical; if they were, we'd all be members of one church which is the church of Rome. There would have been no schism, no reformation, no liberal vs conservative views--we'd all reach the same understanding. But we have not; even the early disciples had different understandings, both seen in early accounts and in their biblical letters.

[dales]

Some are closer to The Truth than others.

[RayThom]

... AMEN!!!

[dales]

John 14:6

[Rick]

Big RR where do you get the notion that there was some great attempt to over throw God for one.

Not from the Bible, Satan tempted and man succumbed to the that temptation and sin entered into the world.

Satan put himself at odds with God, where is mentioned some great revolution?

[Crackpot]

The fall is alluded to a few times in the bible but discussion of it is largely moot as it is not the basis of any doctrine.