Ecuador, not US friendly

[Lord Jim]

It looks like the Ecuadorans may be coming to their senses:

Later Thursday, officials in Ecuador, who had been issuing welcoming statements, changed their tone and began suggesting obstacles that might explain Snowden’s lingering presence in Moscow. Although an Ecuadoran diplomat — apparently in London — had issued Snowden a safe-conduct pass, it had not been authorized by higher ups and was not valid, government officials said, according to an Associated Press report from Quito.

Although Ecuador has been portraying itself as a plucky freedom-of-speech-loving country standing up to an overbearing United States, it may be reluctant to engage in an all-out battle that would endanger trade between the two countries.

Without some kind of travel document — his U.S. passport was revoked — Snowden would not be able to buy an airline ticket. Meanwhile, Russia has made it clear that while it does not want to carry out U.S. wishes to expel him, neither does it want to take the more confrontational decision of admitting him. Snowden was fast becoming a man wanted by only one country — his own, which he is fleeing after being charged with violating espionage laws.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/sno ... story.html

[Gob]

Germany's Der Spiegel magazine says it has seen a secret document showing the US has bugged EU offices in Washington and at UN headquarters in New York.

The paper says it was shown the 2010 "top secret" document by fugitive ex-security analyst Edward Snowden.

The US National Security Agency document allegedly outlined how it spied on EU internal computer networks, referring to the bloc as a "target".

An EU official said the claim could have a "severe impact" on EU-US ties.

"On behalf of the European Parliament, I demand full clarification and require further information speedily from the US authorities with regard to these allegations," Martin Schulz, the President of the European Parliament said in a statement, according to Reuters news agency.

The US has so far made no public comments on the Spiegel's claim.

[Lord Jim]

Yeah, let's see where this traitorous bastard finally gets sent back to...

[rubato]

Germany's Der Spiegel magazine says it has seen a secret document showing the US has bugged EU offices in Washington and at UN headquarters in New York.

The paper says it was shown the 2010 "top secret" document by fugitive ex-security analyst Edward Snowden.

The US National Security Agency document allegedly outlined how it spied on EU internal computer networks, referring to the bloc as a "target".

An EU official said the claim could have a "severe impact" on EU-US ties.

"On behalf of the European Parliament, I demand full clarification and require further information speedily from the US authorities with regard to these allegations," Martin Schulz, the President of the European Parliament said in a statement, according to Reuters news agency.

The US has so far made no public comments on the Spiegel's claim.

But you hate the EU and want the UK out of it. So why do you give a fuck?


yrs,
rubato

[Lord Jim]

But you hate the EU and want the UK out of it. So why do you give a fuck?

No, I do not "hate" the EU...

But I do want the UK to leave it...

As I said, I believe it's an idea who's time has not yet come, for some very good reasons:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8509&p=107426&hilit ... ts#p107426

And yes, I would like to see the UK "out of it " because even though I am a 100% American, my father's family came over here in the mid 1600's and I have a great familial attachment to that Sceptered Isle...

And frankly, I don't like seeing my relatives and our strongest allies, made fools of by participating in an endeavor that yields them no benefit, and nothing but cost...

[Gob]

But you hate the EU and want the UK out of it. So why do you give a fuck?


yrs,
rubato

No I do not "hate" the EU, but yes I do want the UK to leave it.

[Lord Jim]

Gee, like Sean I apparently have problems seeing a quote box....

[Gob]

France and Germany are urging the United States to come clean over claims that its intelligence services have been spying on key EU offices.

A report in Germany's Der Spiegel magazine said European Union offices in the US and Europe had been bugged.

Other "targets" included the French, Italian and Greek embassies in the US, according to leaked documents later mentioned by the Guardian newspaper.

Fugitive ex-CIA analyst Edward Snowden is said to be the source of the leaks.

Mr Snowden - who was also a contractor for the National Security Agency (NSA) - has since requested asylum in Ecuador. He is currently believed to be staying at Moscow's airport.

On Sunday, French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said that if the allegations carried by Der Spiegel were confirmed, such US activities would be "totally unacceptable".

German Justice Minister Sabine Leutheusser-Schnarrenberger said the alleged US behaviour was reminiscent of the Cold War.

"If the media reports are accurate, then this recalls the methods used by enemies during the Cold War," he was quoted as saying by the Associated Press news agency.

"It is beyond comprehension that our friends in the United States see Europeans as enemies."

Meanwhile, the President of the European Parliament, Martin Schulz, said he was "deeply worried and shocked" by the allegations.

He said any such spying could have a "severe impact" on ties between the EU and the US.

According to the document - which Der Spiegel says comes from the NSA - the agency spied on EU internal computer networks in Washington and at the 27-member bloc's UN office in New York.

The document also allegedly refers to the EU as a "target".

Meanwhile, the Guardian reported that - according to one leaked report - 38 embassies and missions had been targeted.

The British newspaper said the list included the French, Italian and Greek embassies, as well as a number of other American allies, including Japan, Mexico, South Korea, India and Turkey.

It is not known what information US spies might have got, but details of European positions on trade and military matters would have been useful to those involved in negotiations between Washington and European governments, the BBC's Stephen Evans says.

There was particular concerns over claims a building used by ministers in Brussels had its phones tapped and internet hacked by US security services, our correspondent adds.

The European Commission, which plays a key role in trade talks, has asked Washington to investigate Der Spiegel's report.

"We have immediately been in contact with the US authorities in Washington DC and in Brussels and have confronted them with the press reports, " it said in a statement.

"They have told us they are checking on the accuracy of the information released yesterday and will come back to us."

The US government has so far made no public comments on the allegations.

Der Spiegel quoted Luxembourg Foreign Minister Jean Asselborn as saying: "If these reports are true, it's disgusting. The United States would be better off monitoring its secret services rather than its allies."

.

[rubato]

But you hate the EU and want the UK out of it. So why do you give a fuck?


yrs,
rubato

No I do not "hate" the EU, but yes I do want the UK to leave it.

And you give a fuck be-cause? Try and stay alert and focussed.


yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

But you hate the EU and want the UK out of it. So why do you give a fuck?

No, I do not "hate" the EU...

But I do want the UK to leave it...

As I said, I believe it's an idea who's time has not yet come, for some very good reasons:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8509&p=107426&hilit ... ts#p107426

And yes, I would like to see the UK "out of it " because even though I am a 100% American, my father's family came over here in the mid 1600's and I have a great familial attachment to that Sceptered Isle...

And frankly, I don't like seeing my relatives and our strongest allies, made fools of by participating in an endeavor that yields them no benefit, and nothing but cost...

I was asking gob. A fact you could have ascertained by noticing that I was responding to his post. I don't actually give a rats ass what you think.

Who does?

yrs,
rubato

[dales]

And you give a fuck be-cause? Try and stay alert and focussed.


yrs,
rubato

And the DERP has the temerity to criticise my spelling?

[rubato]

And you give a fuck be-cause? Try and stay alert and focussed.


yrs,
rubato

And the DERP has the temerity to criticise my spelling?

And your thinking, or the general lack of.

yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

And you give a fuck be-cause? Try and stay alert and focussed.


yrs,
rubato

Well ....Mr Scientist.... despite my objecting to Britain’s EU membership, we are still EU members, and therefore still affected by what affects Europe...

Do you not understand that?

[Lord Jim]

I was asking gob. A fact you could have ascertained by noticing that I was responding to his post. I don't actually give a rats ass what you think.

Who does?

yrs,
rubato

Apparently it was painful for rube to have the reasons that he behaves like such a prick laid out for him in print, so he is lashing out in an attempt to somehow "hurt" me in order to get even....

Thus proving the accuracy of Dale's observation:

He is mired in an infantile stage of development having never blossomed into a fully-functioning well-balanced adult. Somewhere along the line his growth became truncated

[dales]

That's my theory and I'm sticking with it until rubato illustrates other textbook maladoptive behviour.

[Big RR]

Because to a man or woman, every single one of those officials has publicly stated that the classified information that Snowden has now revealed to our enemies has done great harm to US security....

In other words, anyone who actually knows something about this, believes the information released has been extremely damaging....

Nothing personal, but you'll forgive me if I decide to go with the the view of the folks who are actually in a position to know the facts...

Because, of course, we know the government has never lied or used "national security" as a pretext to cover up information which might be inconvenient to those in power if released. Pardon me if I'm not overwhelmed by the "experts" touting the party line.

[oldr_n_wsr]

It's nice to know that the gov is recording my phone calls and emails and probably my web browsing (at least they record the transaction if not the content). And I don't text nor tweet nor facebook, which may put a red flag on me. I suspected the gov did as much but now have confirmation.

I am on the fence about Snowden. On the one hand it's nice that he blew the whistle on what the gov was doing, on the other hand, with people like him, classified info, like having the enigma machine in WWII may have been leaked. I would think there were better options to get the American public the info rather than tell and run into our foriegn nationals hands.

I do have a question about the logistics and operational stand point of collecting this amount of data. Even one days worth of data of every phone call made and email sent would run into the mega-terabyte land. Presumably this data would be encrypted which would make the amount of data even larger.

Algorithms that "could" look for some type of Meta-data pattern might be amployed, but I do not think the current technology is available to sort through the sheer volume of this data. Seems the gov cast a really wide net and is saving the whole catch rather than just the useful fish.

[Gob]

July 10, 2013 - U.S. Voters Say Snowden Is Whistle-Blower, Not Traitor, Quinnipiac University National Poll Finds; Big Shift On Civil Liberties vs. Counter-Terrorism


American voters say 55 - 34 percent that Edward Snowden is a whistle-blower, rather than a traitor, according to a Quinnipiac University national poll released today.

In a massive shift in attitudes, voters say 45 - 40 percent the government's anti-terrorism efforts go too far restricting civil liberties, a reversal from a January 14, 2010, survey by the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University when voters said 63 - 25 percent that such activities didn't go far enough to adequately protect the country.

Almost every party, gender, income, education, age and income group regards Snowden as a whistle-blower rather than a traitor. The lone exception is black voters, with 43 percent calling him a traitor and 42 percent calling him a whistle-blower.

There is a gender gap on counter-terrorism efforts as men say 54 - 34 percent they have gone too far and women say 47 - 36 percent they have not gone far enough. There is little difference among Democrats and Republicans who are about evenly divided. Independent voters say 49 - 36 percent that counter-terrorism measures have gone too far.

Some of the largest growth in those concerned about the threat to civil liberties is among men and Republicans, groups historically more likely to be supportive of governmental anti- terrorism efforts.

"The massive swing in public opinion about civil liberties and governmental anti- terrorism efforts, and the public view that Edward Snowden is more whistle-blower than traitor are the public reaction and apparent shock at the extent to which the government has gone in trying to prevent future terrorist incidents," said Peter Brown, assistant director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.

"The fact that there is little difference now along party lines about the overall anti- terrorism effort and civil liberties and about Snowden is in itself unusual in a country sharply divided along political lines about almost everything. Moreover, the verdict that Snowden is not a traitor goes against almost the unified view of the nation's political establishment."

When Quinnipiac University asked voters in January, 2010, whether they thought the government had gone too far restricting civil liberties or not gone far enough to protect the country, not more than 35 percent of any demographic group thought it had gone too far. Then, Republicans said not far enough 72 - 17 percent; today GOP voters say not far enough 46 - 41 percent. Democrats went from not far enough 57 - 29 percent to too far 43 - 42 percent. Men went from 61 - 28 percent not far enough to 54 - 34 percent too far. Women went from 64 - 22 not far enough to 47 - 36 percent not far enough.

[Andrew D]

Gob beat me to it.

Most Americans have got it right: Snowden is a whistleblower, not a traitor.

As usual, lickspittlers for authority say otherwise.

[Lord Jim]

I think what that poll reflects, (assuming that it is accurate; frankly I'd like to see the results replicated...there are some hugely anomalous results in it, like women being more hardcore on national security then men...I'd be surprised if there's another poll in the history of scientific polling that reflects that...) is a sort of unholy convergence...

Between that portion of the public that habitually and reflexively opposes any and all prudent national security measures, (perhaps 30%) and that portion of the public that habitually and reflexively opposes any and all policies pursued by Obama (maybe another 20-25 per cent....)

Normally these two groups would have nothing in common, but they seem to have a point of intersection here...

And of course the poll also reflects a degree of ignorance on the part of most of the public about exactly how damaging the actions of The Traitor Snowden have been...