Ecuador, not US friendly

[Econoline]

And of course the poll also reflects a degree of ignorance on the part of most of the public about exactly how damaging the actions of The Traitor Snowden have been...

Ignorance? Or just (as Big RR put it) a distrust of government "experts" touting the party line? (BTW...these are many of the same people who, correctly and justifiably, mistrusted the same "experts" during the previous administration.)

[Lord Jim]

(BTW...these are many of the same people who, correctly and justifiably, mistrusted the same "experts" during the previous administration.)

Gee Econo, I guess you missed my pre-emptive strike addressing that very issue earlier in this thread.. :

Nothing personal, but you'll forgive me if I decide to go with the view of the folks who are actually in a position to know the facts...

Now, I am quite sure that what I've said here will undoubtedly bring a comment from some quarter along the lines of, "Yeah, well the folks you describe are the same types who were all telling us that Saddam Hussein had WMD a few years ago", so I might as well go ahead and deal with that preemptively....

There's no valid comparison between these two things; they are completely different. There is a world of difference between reaching conclusions based on fragmentary intelligence about the capabilities of a hostile nation where we had few intelligence assets, and the ability to evaluate the importance of one of our own programs, about which the players know all the relevant facts. Apple and oranges.

[Big RR]

Of course Jim, you're assuming that in all cases those in power did their best to do the right things with the data/information they had and reported the results truthfully to the people. Of course, things like the Pentagon Papers belie this, and I think many of us can point to urposeful abuses of government power for many reason other than protecting the people.

Take a look at the latest flap about the whitehouse pressuring the IRS to target conservative groups for audits (and please, let's not rehash the validity of those claims in this thread); no one would argue that an IRS audit capability is necessary to a smooth running government, but it's also clear that this has been abused by those who control it to their own political ends. Apples or oranges, I think we know what government assurances mean.

[Econoline]

No, I didn't miss that, Jim. But I was agreeing with Big RR that it boils down to trusting or mistrusting the government--and the fact that many of those who mistrust feel they have history on their side. If there's any "ignorance" involved it's the fact that people simply don't know who to trust.

FWIW, I'm really not sure what I think of Snowden anymore. I had more sympathy for him at the start of this whole affair. Now that he's involved not just Hong Kong (and, peripherally, China) as at first, but also Russia, Ecuador, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba, and anyone else who has a fundamental aversion to the U.S. and its national interests, I have very little patience left.

He's *NOT* going to get away forever, and I would've had much more respect for him if after the first blast of publicity--which effectively insured that the U.S. couldn't just quietly sweep it all under the rug--he had calmly surrendered and took his chances with the U.S. justice system. He would've had many allies and a lot of legal and financial support. He's going to have to face justice eventually, and I think he would have fared much better if he had done so much earlier and on his own terms.

[Crackpot]

I feel the same Econo. I try to give him a little leeway since he doesn't have the luxury of looking at it from the outside but with every subsequent action he just seems to dig himself deeper.

[Gob]

Who? Snowden or Jim?

[Lord Jim]

Who? Snowden or Jim?

"Har Har HARDY Har Har"

Just what we need around here...

A Welsh Jan Murray...

[rubato]

Speaking of Ecuador; has anyone been to the Galapagos?

Its somewhere up there in the realm of 'dream vacations' I'll probably never get to.

yrs,
rubato

[dales]

Put it on your bucket list, rube.

You and the little woman can go there for a 2nd honeymoon.

[Crackpot]

It's not that expensive to go Rube. It cost about the same as my trip to Peru and If I could afford that on my Low class wages I'm sure you could scrounge up the change. Heck you don't even have kids to worry about.

[Gob]

Best committee members!

I suggest that the 2013 Peace Prize awarded to the American citizen Edward Snowden.

Edward Snowden has - in a heroic effort at great personal cost - revealed the existence and extent of the surveillance, the U.S. government devotes electronic communications worldwide. By putting light on this monitoring program - conducted in contravention of national laws and international agreements - Edward Snowden has helped to make the world a little bit better and safer.

Through his personal efforts, he has also shown that individuals can stand up for fundamental rights and freedoms. This example is important because since the Nuremberg trials in 1945 has been clear that the slogan "I was just following orders" is never claimed as an excuse for acts contrary to human rights and freedoms. Despite this, it is very rare that individual citizens having the insight of their personal responsibility and courage Edward Snowden shown in his revelation of the American surveillance program. For this reason, he is a highly affordable candidate.

The decision to award the 2013 prize to Edward Snowden would - in addition to being well justified in itself - also help to save the Nobel Peace Prize from the disrepute that incurred by the hasty and ill-conceived decision to award U.S. President Barack Obama 2009 award. It would show its willingness to stand up in defense of civil liberties and human rights, even when such a defense be viewed with disfavour by the world's dominant military power.

Sincerely,

Stefan Svallfors
Professor of Sociology at Umeå University

[dales]

Where's Urea University?

[rubato]

It's not that expensive to go Rube. It cost about the same as my trip to Peru and If I could afford that on my Low class wages I'm sure you could scrounge up the change. Heck you don't even have kids to worry about.

Time


yrs,
rubato

[Crackpot]

explains why you aren't affluent then.

[Lord Jim]

explains why you aren't affluent then.

You mean wealthy...

[Lord Jim]

I suggest that the 2013 Peace Prize awarded to the American citizen Edward Snowden.

Yeah, and last year The Traitor Manning and Aswipeange were also nominated....

I'm surprised Julius Rosenberg, Alger Hiss, and Ken Philby didn't get nominated...

Adolf Hitler got nominated in 1939...

Doesn't take much to get nominated...

Or in recent years, even to win it...

Hell, even Jimmy Carter won a Nobel Peace Prize...

You can probably find one in the bottom of your Cracker Jacks box....

[oldr_n_wsr]

Hell, even Jimmy Carter won a Nobel Peace Prize...

And Obama

[Sue U]

Speaking of Ecuador; has anyone been to the Galapagos?

My mom went a couple of years ago. Pro tip: Do not kill Galapagos spiders in your hotel room.

[Crackpot]

Why?

[Lord Jim]

Well, since every form of wild life on those islands is unique, they're probably legally protected.