A shelter from pigs on the wing.

[Gob]

Former Pink Floyd bassist Roger Waters has fallen into a bitter race row after a leading rabbi branded him an 'open hater of Jews' because of a prop he used on stage during his recent world tour.

The musician, who is a vocal pro-Palestinian campaigner, came under fire last week after he floated a balloon of a giant pig emblazoned with the Star of David above the stage in Belgium. The move sparked fury within the international Jewish community, including that of Rabbi Abraham Cooper, of the human rights group Simon Wiesenthal Center, who branded the showpiece a 'grotesque display of Jew-hatred'. Video of the concert posted online shows the pig, also painted with dollar signs, the logo for oil conglomerate Shell and the Communist hammer and sickle symbol, drifting over the crowd during the climax of the show's finale.

'With this disgusting display Roger Waters has made it crystal clear: forget Israel, never mind "limited boycotts promoting Middle East Peace", Waters is an open hater of Jews,' Rabbi Cooper told Jewish website The Algemeiner. 'The video is beyond shocking. The only books this bigot should be getting should be with the Mullahs in Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood.' But Waters almost immediately issued an impassioned retort on Facebook, in which he called Rabbi Cooper's remarks 'so wild and bigoted they demand a response'. 'I hold your outburst to be inflammatory and un-helpful and would suggest it can only impede progress towards peace and understanding between people,' he writes. 'It is also extremely insulting to me personally in that you accuse me of being ‘Anti Semitic’, ‘A Jew Hater’ and ‘Nazi Sympathizer’.

Refuting the accusations, he goes on to say he also put 'the Crucifix, the Crescent and Star, the Hammer and Sickle, the Shell Oil Logo and The McDonald’s Sign, a Dollar Sign and a Mercedes sign' on the pig.

'The Wall Show, so lamely attacked by you,' he continues. 'Is many things. It is thoughtful, life affirming, ecumenical, humane, loving, anti war, anti colonial, pro universal access to the law, pro liberty, pro collaboration, pro dialogue, pro peace, anti authoritarian, anti fascist, anti apartheid, anti dogma, international in spirit, musical and satirical.' He goes on: 'In a functioning theocracy it is almost inevitable that the symbol of the religion becomes confused with the symbol of the state, in this case the State of Israel, a state that operates Apartheid both within its own borders and also in the territories it has occupied and colonized since 1967.

'To peacefully protest against Israel’s racist domestic and foreign policies is NOT ANTI-SEMITIC.'
The row broke out after Pink Floyd fan Alon Onfus Asif, an Israeli expat in Belgium, posted a video of the pig online after attending the concert. 'I came to the concert because I really like his music, without any connection to his political stance toward Israel,' he told Israeli daily Yediot Ahronot. 'And I had a lot of fun, until I noticed the Star of David, on the inflatable pig.

'That was the only religious-national symbol which appeared among other symbols for fascism, dictatorships and oppression of people. 'Waters crossed the line and gave expression to an anti-Semitic message, beyond all his messages of anti-militancy.'

[oldr_n_wsr]

The pigs been around for 30+ years. Maybe it should be put out to pasture (or on the griddle).

[Rick]

I can get away with anything I want as long as I'm Jewish and if you don't agree yer an Anti Semite.

It's old I guess, anti-Zionist Jews are Anti-Semitic too...

[rubato]

Refuting the accusations, he goes on to say he also put 'the Crucifix, the Crescent and Star, the Hammer and Sickle, the Shell Oil Logo and The McDonald’s Sign, a Dollar Sign and a Mercedes sign' on the pig.

A confused use of symbols perhaps, but not inherently anti-semitic. But he dates from an era when a pop musician only had to vomit up some loaded imagery for people to call it 'art'. Oh wait, that's still true isn't it?

Of course, as said above, anyone who criticizes Israel is labeled "antisemitic".

yrs,
rubato

[Scooter]

In what universe are a crucifix and crescent/star not "religious-national symbol", and how are they "symbols for fascism, dictatorships and oppression of people"?

[Big RR]

Indeed they are national symbols, both the cross and the crescent/star are on the flags of many different nations. As for the latter, my guess is that it is a matter of opinion.

[Lord Jim]

but not inherently anti-semitic.

You'll forgive me if I don't take counsel from the one self proven anti-semite on this board on the topic of what is and is not anti-semitic...

anyone who criticizes Israel is labeled "antisemitic".

No, but anyone who says the Jewish religion is inherently racist most certainly is:

The racism towards blacks is contiguous with their racism towards Palestinians (both Christian and Muslim). And it is tied to their religion.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8956&p=113300&hili ... on#p113300

Pairing up a pig with The Star Of David seems pretty blatantly anti-semitic to me....

[Scooter]

If this was anti-Semitic he was certainly anti a lot of other things that were also symbolized on that pig.

It seems a bit precious to specifically call it out for being anti-Semitic when there was also a Christian cross, an Islamic star and crescent, a hammer and sickle, a dollar sign, the symbols for Mercedes and McDonald's, etc. And to refer to all of those as symbols of fascism, dictatorship and oppression.

[Lord Jim]

I'm sorry, I misread that, I thought he had used those other symbols with the pig on other occasions, not all at once...

Okay, not specifically an anti-semite then...

Just a flaming ignoramus....

(Or somebody trying to get a little publicity to revive a flagging career by being as offensive as possible...)

[rubato]

Like I said.

A confused use of symbols.

And I did not say that the Jewish religion is inherently racist. Yet another stupid lie. From one who lies all the time.





Yrs,
Rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

er no. They were not all on the pig at the same time. He has displayed various signs at other times. And er no.... I can't think of a single national flag that uses a Christian cross as such as a stand-alone symbol having a religious meaning for the country itself. I could be wrong on that.

Because of the shape of flags, such crosses are always wider than they are long whereas the Christian symbol is much taller, with the cross bar toward the top. An exception would be Switzerland which boldly puts the cross slap bang in the middle with equal length "arms".

The British flag incorporates the crosses of St David, St Andrew and St George. The individual crosses on the three national flags are at least descended from the Christian cross although they have no real current association with any national "religion". A moslem might view the some banners as a crusader insult (which is why the Red Cross flag becomes the Red Crescent in those sensitive areas that are difficult to shave).

If Mr Thingy put a simple "cross" on the pig, it would not be an insult to any country that incorporates any version of the cross in its own national flag - it would be a comment on the Christian religion perhaps. It is of course meaningless (or should be) to a Christian that a cross should be displayed on a pig - but to Jews and Moslems (and Hindus, Sikhs?) the association of their religious symbol or national symbol with pork is of course deliberately inflammatory on more than one level.

I'd like to see the photo of the crescent and stars mounted on the pig.... did it truly happen and where? And I'd love to see him display a picture of Mohammed on a pig - but that's not going to happen is it? I wonder why?

Meade

[Gob]

[Lord Jim]

And I did not say that the Jewish religion is inherently racist. Yet another stupid lie. From one who lies all the time.

Quite right rube, you said that racism is "tied" to the Jewish religion. (I quoted you directly and provided the link)

So if your use of "tied" doesn't mean "a part of", (and thus "inherent") then just exactly what did you mean? (I personally don't see any other possible interpretation but it would certainly be amusing to watch you try to invent one. I'd love for you to return to this discussion and have you dig yourself a deeper hole, but frankly you'd be better advised to do your slither away routine. )

What happened here rube is that like most bigots nowadays, you try to make an effort to soft pedal your bigotry, but also like most bigots your loathing is so deep that sometimes you slip up.

That's clearly what happened here. You made a statement which blatantly exposed your anti-semitism, and now that it's being pointed out and you're being compelled to own it, you realize how bad it looks , and in classic rube style you're trying to wriggle out of it...

Unfortunately for you, no matter how much you try to re-write what you said, (one of your favorite pastimes around here) it's right there in black and white for all to read. Calling me a "liar" won't change what you said; and attempting to substitute some new statement that means something entirely different from what you originally said and pretending it means the same thing won't change what you said either.

It seems quite fair to me when you choose to offer opinions on this subject, that you have where you're really coming from pointed out, so that your views can be judged accordingly. When an anti-semite starts talking about what constitutes anti-semitism, it's appropriate his own anti-semitism be noted.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Well I was at the very least partially wrong - there's that hammer and sickle.

[Lord Jim]

Okay now I'm thinking I didn't mis-read this...

This is in the first paragraph:

Video of the concert posted online shows the pig, also painted with dollar signs, the logo for oil conglomerate Shell and the Communist hammer and sickle symbol, drifting over the crowd during the climax of the show's finale.

This appears later:

Refuting the accusations, he goes on to say he also put 'the Crucifix, the Crescent and Star, the Hammer and Sickle, the Shell Oil Logo and The McDonald’s Sign, a Dollar Sign and a Mercedes sign' on the pig.

So, in the instance to which the rabbi refers, the only religious symbol that appears is the Star Of David, along with those other symbols. (I'm sure he doesn't have a detailed knowledge of Waters' other shows)

Now I completely understand where the rabbi was coming from; and his reaction is fully justified.

The key to understanding his reaction is to look not just at the symbol of the Jewish people being placed on the pig, but also at the other symbols it is being associated with....The symbols of money , "exploitive" capitalism and communism....

The idea that "the Jews" had all the big money and were behind both exploitive capitalism and communism was a major theme of the short guy with the brush mustache....

The rabbi no doubt knows this; the hence 'Nazi Sympathizer' charge...

It's entirely possible that Waters does not know this,(he seems to have a rubato-level knowledge and understanding of history and politics) but it makes the rabbi's reaction perfectly understandable.

[Scooter]

I suspect that it is more likely that there is ONE version of the pig that has ALL of those symbols on it, and that the rabbi noticed the Star of David but not the cross and the crescent and star, than there being multiple versions of this pig where some of these symbols occur and not others.

[Big RR]

Meade--there is actually some sort of rule or something that states a "Christian" cross (are there other types of crosses) must be taller than it is wide. While most churches I have seen use a cross of this type, I think either a taller or a wider cross could be used for crucifixion. And if you look at the derivation of the Scandinavian flags (Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland), you will see all originally intended to depict a Christian cross. Maybe it's laying on its side to fit on the flag?

[Lord Jim]

I suspect that it is more likely that there is ONE version of the pig that has ALL of those symbols on it

Well that's possible, the way the article is written however that is by no means clear.

Also, apparently Waters does use multiple pigs with multiple messages:

Roger Waters solo tours

During a concert in Summerfest 2006, the pig had a message printed on it reading "Impeach Bush"

During Waters' performance at the 2008 Coachella Festival, one of the giant inflatable pigs being used as a prop became untethered and floated away into the California desert. Organizers of the festival have offered a $10,000 reward plus free lifetime tickets to the festival in return for the pig's recovery. The pig was found three days later at a nearby country club.[8]

Likewise, during the concert in Dallas, TX on 2 May 2008, and Houston, TX on 4 May, the pig floated away.

In a concert in Argentina on 2007, a pig flew and ended up on the Río de la Plata.

At Argentina tour dates in 2007, the pig had the "Nunca Más" (Never again) inscription on its chest, referring to the famous slogan with which the Argentine people referred to the Dictatorship when 30,000 people "disappeared" and were killed in the 1970s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_Floyd_pigs

[Scooter]

Ok, fair enough.

[Jarlaxle]

I'm sorry, I misread that, I thought he had used those other symbols with the pig on other occasions, not all at once...

Okay, not specifically an anti-semite then...

Just a flaming ignoramus....

(Or somebody trying to get a little publicity to revive a flagging career by being as offensive as possible...)

By Jove, I think he's got it!