Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

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rubato
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by rubato »

A timely reminder.


https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/selassie.htm
APPEAL TO THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS
Haile Selassie
June 1936

"I, Haile Selassie I, Emperor of Ethiopia, am here today to claim that justice which is due to my people, and the assistance promised to it eight months ago, when fifty nations asserted that aggression had been committed in violation of international treaties.

There is no precedent for a Head of State himself speaking in this assembly. But there is also no precedent for a people being victim of such injustice and being at present threatened by abandonment to its aggressor. Also, there has never before been an example of any Government proceeding to the systematic extermination of a nation by barbarous means, in violation of the most solemn promises made by the nations of the earth that there should not be used against innocent human beings the terrible poison of harmful gases. It is to defend a people struggling for its age-old independence that the head of the Ethiopian Empire has come to Geneva to fulfil this supreme duty, after having himself fought at the head of his armies.

I pray to Almighty God that He may spare nations the terrible sufferings that have just been inflicted on my people, and of which the chiefs who accompany me here have been the horrified witnesses.

It is my duty to inform the Governments assembled in Geneva, responsible as they are for the lives of millions of men, women and children, of the deadly peril which threatens them, by describing to them the fate which has been suffered by Ethiopia. It is not only upon warriors that the Italian Government has made war. It has above all attacked populations far removed from hostilities, in order to terrorize and exterminate them.

At the beginning, towards the end of 1935, Italian aircraft hurled upon my armies bombs of tear-gas. Their effects were but slight. The soldiers learned to scatter, waiting until the wind had rapidly dispersed the poisonous gases. The Italian aircraft then resorted to mustard gas. Barrels of liquid were hurled upon armed groups. But this means also was not effective; the liquid affected only a few soldiers, and barrels upon the ground were themselves a warning to troops and to the population of the danger.

It was at the time when the operations for the encircling of Makalle were taking place that the Italian command, fearing a rout, followed the procedure which it is now my duty to denounce to the world. Special sprayers were installed on board aircraft so that they could vaporize, over vast areas of territory, a fine, death-dealing rain. Groups of nine, fifteen, eighteen aircraft followed one another so that the fog issuing from them formed a continuous sheet. It was thus that, as from the end of January, 1936, soldiers, women, children, cattle, rivers, lakes and pastures were drenched continually with this deadly rain. In order to kill off systematically all living creatures, in order to more surely to poison waters and pastures, the Italian command made its aircraft pass over and over again. That was its chief method of warfare.

Ravage and Terror

The very refinement of barbarism consisted in carrying ravage and terror into the most densely populated parts of the territory, the points farthest removed from the scene of hostilities. The object was to scatter fear and death over a great part of the Ethiopian territory. These fearful tactics succeeded. Men and animals succumbed. The deadly rain that fell from the aircraft made all those whom it touched fly shrieking with pain. All those who drank the poisoned water or ate the infected food also succumbed in dreadful suffering. In tens of thousands, the victims of the Italian mustard gas fell. It is in order to denounce to the civilized world the tortures inflicted upon the Ethiopian people that I resolved to come to Geneva. None other than myself and my brave companions in arms could bring the League of Nations the undeniable proof. The appeals of my delegates addressed to the League of Nations had remained without any answer; my delegates had not been witnesses. That is why I decided to come myself to bear witness against the crime perpetrated against my people and give Europe a warning of the doom that awaits it, if it should bow before the accomplished fact.

Is it necessary to remind the Assembly of the various stages of the Ethiopian drama? For 20 years past, either as Heir Apparent, Regent of the Empire, or as Emperor, I have never ceased to use all my efforts to bring my country the benefits of civilization, and in particular to establish relations of good neighbourliness with adjacent powers. In particular I succeeded in concluding with Italy the Treaty of Friendship of 1928, which absolutely prohibited the resort, under any pretext whatsoever, to force of arms, substituting for force and pressure the conciliation and arbitration on which civilized nations have based international order. ... see link for the rest.
yrs,
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Lord Jim
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Lord Jim »

Oh man, I hate it when I have to say things like:

"Rubato, that's very poignant and spot on; you make an excellent point..."







(I'd rather take a whipping... :?)
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Lord Jim
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Lord Jim »

A sensible view from an op-ed in Haaretz (an Israeli daily newspaper) a few months ago, by Moshe Ma'oz, a guy who knows a little bit about the subject:
It is true that the Free Syrian Army is not sufficiently consolidated and strong enough and that the rebels also include fighters from Al-Qaida and other extremist Salafi groups. However, despite these groups’ radical motivation and ideology, they account for only a few thousand of the fighters. Most of them are not Syrians and they do not represent the mainstream Sunni Muslim population of Syria.

In a joint and systematic effort with Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Jordan, and with massive help from the U.S. and the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, it is possible to strengthen and consolidate the Free Syrian Army (which currently numbers about 50,000 fighters), create a wide buffer zone inside Syria’s northern border and prevent the Syrian army from acting in this area.
If that is an accurate assessment of the situation on the ground, then it is a far more hopeful situation then I had previously imagined...

All the more reason to destabilize Assad's ability to act...
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Lord Jim
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Lord Jim »

Jim, if your next door neighbour threatens to come and punch your nose in, I'd see that as endangering you. I don't see it as much of a threat to me though.
Well, you might think that... you might very well think that... but what if this was a bully boy who lived in our neighborhood with a well known penchant for punching noses?

You might think, "well, he just wants to punch Jim's nose; it's nothing to do with me..."

Or you might think, "This fellow has a proclivity for punching noses...He's punching Jim's nose today, but perhaps he'll tire of punching Jim's nose, and my nose might be next..."

"Perhaps it would be in my best interest to be involved in an alliance that discourages nose punching generally, even if my nose doesn't happen to be the immediate proximate target..."
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Gob
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Gob »

I can't really see Syria taking on the world one country at a time Jim.

I cannot even see it successfully taking on its own rebels.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

rubato
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by rubato »

Gob wrote:I can't really see Syria taking on the world one country at a time Jim.

I cannot even see it successfully taking on its own rebels.

They have been successful in holding off the rebels for long enough that no one predicting Assad's imminent demise anymore. And their support networks from Lebanon and Iran have had time to ramp up their activities. Hezbollah has started engaging the rebels directly and winning battles.

It is a moment when leadership is needed.

yrs,
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Big RR
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Big RR »

Big RR, your argument seems to boil down to, "because no one else is willing to do the right thing, we shouldn't either"....
Come one jim; my point is that individual nations have the right to defend themselves and their interests; the international community must act in concert to defend common interests and to enforce international rules and regulations. Since I don't see the interests of the US (or the Us itself) seriously threatened by the actions of Asaad, I think it is up to the international community to act in concert to enforce its standards; if agreement cannot be reached, then those standards are probably not worthy of being enforced (or at least are no longer embraced by the community).

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Guinevere
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Guinevere »

Lord Jim wrote:I'll say one thing, this has really created some strange bedfellows...

Me, rube, and CP lined up on one side, Dave, Strop and Big RR on the other....

You don't see that every day.... 8-)
You forgot to add Andrew to your side of the equation.

As a hippie peacenik I'm torn, but I tend most to that same side: someone needs to take a stand against the use of chemical weapons -- even if we are not (and should not be in this case) getting involved in the underlying conflict.

ETA: Yes, ideally, "international community" *should* do something, but since "it" is mostly ineffective as an entity, then its left to the ones with the military and moral capability to take the stand. And that's us.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Big RR »

Guin--so you're saying we unilaterally have the right to set standards of behavior for other nations and enforce them because we have the military capability to do so? I can't agree.

As for "moral capability", if we ever had it I think we lost it with some of our recent behavior (as I said in my previous post). I share your concern aob0ut chemical weapons, I just don't think we are in any position to force our will on another nation and claim a moral high ground. If we want to help the rebels because it's in our interest, let's do so openly, not hiding behind a convenient excuse.

rubato
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by rubato »

Big RR wrote:Guin--so you're saying we unilaterally have the right to set standards of behavior for other nations and enforce them because we have the military capability to do so? I can't agree.

As for "moral capability", if we ever had it I think we lost it with some of our recent behavior (as I said in my previous post). I share your concern aob0ut chemical weapons, I just don't think we are in any position to force our will on another nation and claim a moral high ground. If we want to help the rebels because it's in our interest, let's do so openly, not hiding behind a convenient excuse.

We have the unilateral obligation to defend the weak and persecuted against the strong and brutal. We have an obligation to set limits on the savagery with which people can be treated. Failure to act is an endorsement of Assad's right to do whatever he wants and tells the rest of the world that they are right to do nothing to stop evil. There is no neutral corner here, morally.

We have an obligation because we can do something. Increased capacity increases the scope of moral responsibility.

yrs,
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Big RR
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Big RR »

rubato--if we have always acted morally in the past, I might agree with you, but we are hardly are moral beacon. Hell, we practically patted Saddam on the back for the same thing years ago (not to mention having supplied him with the chemicals to make the poison), but then he was the enemy of our enemy (Iran) while Assad is its friend--and the end justifies the means. Not to mention that we have supported and helped dictatorial regimes in the past who have done far worse because it was in our interest. Acting in our own self interest is not always moral, and it erodes any argument that we are acting morally now. Indeed, I don't think there is any country which can defensibly that it is acting out of some moral sense of outrage.

That is why I think only a concerted international response can work; our interests are not always aligned with other countries (even our friends), which is why a coalition would act in a situation like this only if there is a moral imperative, and not some self interest masquerading as such.

Either that, or admit we are acting in our own self interest and present the case to the American public as to why a strike is needed to advance that interest. There may well be defensible interests here (I don't see them, but they may exist), but let's not delude ourselves to say we are acting as a defender of morality.

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Long Run
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Long Run »

The problem is, what does it mean to take military action? If it is the symbolic strike that the Administration is talking about, everyone knows it is merely symbolic and thus it has no meaning. If the action is part of a coherent and well-reasoned strategy for dealing with Syria and the broader region, then more than 25% of our country and more than one ally will join -- in fact, there could well be the type of coalition and broad support that existed in the first Gulf War. But clearly there is no strategy. Get back to us when they have the plan.

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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Big RR »

And include in the plan what we will do with the aftermath; if we oust Assad, do we really want Al Qaeda (the people we spent all those lives fighting in Afghanistan) to have a role in governing Syria (maybe they're really not that bad)? Generally, we are a lot better at starting, rather than ending, wars/military actions.

dgs49
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by dgs49 »

Have we ever heard the slogan, "Give Peace a Chance"?

What are the chances for all sides outside Syria to exert as much pressure as possible to stop the hostilities under some sort of a brokered peace? Is anyone working to this end? It doesn't seem like it. It would be an opportunity to force Iran's hand - make them prove that they are embarking on a new era now that they have a new president who appears not to be psychotic.

I recently read the number Two Million - as in, Refugees who have fled Syria. This makes it a huge international problem that is affecting many different countries, including the U.S.

I just don't see any benefit to "punishing" the Syrian regime. Never punch someone unless you know exactly what you want to accomplish and how you intend to get there. Zero for two, as I see it.

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Gob
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Gob »

rubato wrote: We have an obligation because we can do something. Increased capacity increases the scope of moral responsibility.

yrs,
rubato
"The indispensable nation that drenched North Vietnam with napalm and agent orange, showered Fallujah with white phosphorus and large swathes of Iraq with depleted uranium is getting ready to attack Syria based on extremely dodgy evidence and the "moral high-ground". Anyone who believes the White House's pre-bombing maximum spin should rent a condo in Alice in Wonderland."

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_Eas ... 30913.html
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Lord Jim
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

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extremely dodgy evidence
Speaking of "dodgy ":
Pepe Escobar (born 1954) is a Brazilian investigative journalist.

He initially became famous in Brazil during the 80s, writing cultural criticism for the Folha de São Paulo newspaper. His distinctive style proved to be popular and he is still an influence among many Brazilian journalists[1]. His employment in the newspaper ended when André Singer, then a journalist in this newspaper and a Beatles fan, noted that Pepe had lifted entire paragraphs from articles in the European media[2]. Singer pointed out the plagiarism in the newspaper and other instances of plagiarism were discovered - like a review of a David Bowie album that was lifted from a Rolling Stone book. [3] Pepe replied that the articles were like mirrors, a homage to the Rolling Stone Book, and that it was also a homage to David Bowie, the so-called "Chameleon". Soon after, he was be accused of lifting an interview with Bryan Ferry for a Brazilian rock magazine.[4]

He has worked as a foreign correspondent since 1985, living in Los Angeles, Paris, Milan, Singapore, Bangkok, and Hong Kong. He has focused on Central Asia and the Middle East since the late 1990s. He writes a column- The Roving Eye- for Asia Times Online, as well as regular pieces for Al Jazeera, and Tom Engelhardt's TomDispatch.com. His columns have been mirrored at Michael Moore.com, The Nation, and The Huffington Post.

On television, Escobar has provided political analysis for Russia's RT network, Iran's PressTV, Al Jazeera's The Stream, and The Real News Network. On radio, he has been a guest on Sibel Edmonds' Boiling Frogs Show, The Peter B. Collins Show, Anti War Radio with Scott Horton, What Really Happened Show, Corbett Report, The Voice of Russia's Burning Point, Ernest Hancock's FreedomPhoenix.com and The Alex Jones Show.

His article, 'Get Osama! Now! Or else...', was published by Asia Times Online two weeks before the terrorist attacks of 11 September 2001.

An excerpted paragraph from his column of August 30th, 2001: "Osama bin Laden - also the No 1 target of the CIA's counter-terrorism center - is now a superstar playing the bad guy in some sort of planetary Hollywood fiction. Yet inside Afghanistan today, where the Saudi Arabian lives in exile, Osama is a minor character. He is ill and always in hiding - usually "somewhere near Kabul". Once in a while he travels incognito to Peshawar. His organization, the Al Qa'Ida, is split, and in tatters. The Taliban owe him a lot for his past deeds towards the movement and in putting them in power in Afghanistan - contributing with a stack of his own personal fortune of millions of dollars. But no longer an asset, he has become a liability."[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepe_Escobar

Can't you find anything from Pravda?
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Gob
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Gob »

Lord Jim wrote:
extremely dodgy evidence
Speaking of "dodgy ":

Sorry Jim? Are you trying to say that the US did not; "drenched North Vietnam with napalm and agent orange, showered Fallujah with white phosphorus and large swathes of Iraq with depleted uranium",?
On 19/03/2013 , a terrorist group armed with rocket-launched poisonous warheads fired them against the city of Khan Al-Assal on the outskirts of Aleppo, killing 25 people and injuring 110 people, including civilians and military. That same day, Syria made ​​an official request to the Secretary General of the United Nations to send a delegation that was impartial and unbiased to ascertain the event, but the United States, Britain and France put obstacles to the coming of this delegation by submitting claims and assumptions about the use of chemical weapons by the Syrian government in other regions.

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/06- ... n_syria-0/
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by Econoline »

Lord Jim wrote:I'll say one thing, this has really created some strange bedfellows...

Me, rube, and CP lined up on one side, Dave, Strop and Big RR on the other....

You don't see that every day.... 8-)
Move over, Jim, and stop hogging all the blankets. :o ;)

I don't often say this, but National Review has got it right and makes the case well:
Credibility can seem an elusive commodity and one not worth firing shots over, but it is the coin of the realm in international relations, especially for a great power. When we eroded our deterrent with ill-advised statements or acts of weakness, we got the Korean War, the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. When our deterrent was at a high ebb in the immediate aftermath of our toppling Saddam Hussein, Libya gave up its nuclear program and, evidently, Iran temporarily stopped its uranium production.

If we don’t act in this case, after all this windup, Iran and Hezbollah will take note of how little our admonitions to not acquire or use weapons of mass destruction really mean. We can’t know exactly what would come of our self-inflicted humiliation, but it would be nothing good. For that reason, we would vote “yes” on the authorization, although we think reasonable people can disagree, and we urge Congress to push the president to enunciate a Syria strategy beyond punishing it for its chemical-weapons use.
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rubato
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by rubato »

Gob wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:
extremely dodgy evidence
Speaking of "dodgy ":

Sorry Jim? Are you trying to say that the US did not; "drenched North Vietnam with napalm and agent orange, showered Fallujah with white phosphorus and large swathes of Iraq with depleted uranium",?
On 19/03/2013 , a terrorist group armed with rocket-launched poisonous warheads fired them against the city of Khan Al-Assal on the outskirts of Aleppo, killing 25 people and injuring 110 people, including civilians and military. That same day, Syria made ​​an official request to the Secretary General of the United Nations to send a delegation that was impartial and unbiased to ascertain the event, but the United States, Britain and France put obstacles to the coming of this delegation by submitting claims and assumptions about the use of chemical weapons by the Syrian government in other regions.

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/06- ... n_syria-0/

When you have nothing to say, change the subject. Is that the British way of dong things?


yrs,
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rubato
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Re: Did Anyone Hear Kerry Speak?

Post by rubato »

Big RR wrote:And include in the plan what we will do with the aftermath; if we oust Assad, do we really want Al Qaeda (the people we spent all those lives fighting in Afghanistan) to have a role in governing Syria (maybe they're really not that bad)? Generally, we are a lot better at starting, rather than ending, wars/military actions.

The government which follows Assad will not be up to us and it will not be our moral responsibility if it is good or bad. By providing a very slight assistance to ousting Assad we will be helping (very slightly) to give the people of Syria the opportunity to form a better government. Whether they will or not is up to them.

Any retaliation for the use of chemical weapons is at most a very small assistance to the rebels who have been fighting for a long time and will have most of the credit for success.

yrs,
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