Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

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Econoline
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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Econoline »

Sue U wrote:ARE YOU FRICKIN' READY YET????
I posted this in the "Home for Random Thoughts" thread earlier today...but since Sue brought up the subject here:
Econoline wrote:Second Amendment! Second Amendment! Second Amendment!Of course it ain't goin' nowhere, ain't never gonna be repealed, etc. But how 'bout we change it just a leeeetle bitsy, so's it's at least a little more honest? See, nobody cares a bit about the first part, the "well regulated militia" part (especially not the "well regulated" bit!)--probably nobody ever knew what the hell it was for, anyway. So, let's just lose that part, and replace it with something else, something that's more comprehensible to today's modern Amurrcans.

Okay. So....here's my suggestion for the New, Improved, Up-to-Date Second Amendment:

Random acts of senseless violence being necessary to the security of a free state,
the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Sue U »

I'm having a really hard time finding any humor in this subject, let alone snark. It's just frustrating and infuriating.
GAH!

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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Gob »

Move to Australia Sue, you know you want to...

we have koalas....
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Lord Jim »

Oh gawd, this is such an old story...

"gun control" is one of those topics, (abortion and the death penalty immediately spring to mind as other examples) where every single argument...

And I do mean EV-E-RY SINGLE conceivable argument, left, right and center...

From the most radical positions at both ends of the spectrum, to the most moderate at the center, this has already been discussed, exhaustively..., ad nauseating...

There is not one argument on this subject that hasn't been made, responded to, then had a response to that response, and another response made again...

Not ONE...

All without any resolution or "meeting of the minds"...

I can not imagine a more pointless discussion then one about the merits of "gun control"...

For my part, I'm not going to jump on that rhetorical death spiral merry-go-round again...

If anyone wants my comments on the subject, I will provide links back to what I said in the discussions we had after The Newtown Massacre; my position hasn't changed.
Last edited by Lord Jim on Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:08 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Lord Jim »

Back at the Cafe Darte, we had a poster who would occasionally use the handle, "The Chinese Man"...(I never figured out who he was but he made a good point..it might have been Bird Man...)

He would always post, "Stop, stop, you hitting head!"

His sardonic point was that a dead horse was being beaten so hard that it was being driven through the center of the planet and coming out on the other end and hitting him in the head... 8-)

That's the kind of discussion we've got going on here about "gun control"...
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Gob
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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Gob »

Do you own a gun Jim? Just out of interest, as you seem to have strong views on this.
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Lord Jim »

Yes Strop, I own a Walther PK 44....

I've told this story before...

I was dating a lady back in the late 80's who inherited a gun collection as part of a divorce settlement who asked me which gun I would like as a present...

(She was kind of a freak, but it's a lovely gun...)

I don't sleep with it under my pillow, (I take it out for target practice and to clean it about once a year; fire off a couple of rounds on New Years..). most of the year it's packed away in the garage...I don't generally feel the need to have it with me, but if I did I would certainly want the right to have it...

Just because one doesn't feel an immediate need to exercise a Constitutional right, doesn't mean one doesn't value it...

I don't think it's likely that the government is going to want to "quarter troops" in my home any time soon, but I'm glad that there's a Constitutional prohibition against it... 8-)
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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Guinevere »

Sue U wrote:ARE YOU FRICKIN' READY YET????
Getting there.
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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Guinevere »

Lord Jim wrote:Back at the Cafe Darte, we had a poster who would occasionally use the handle, "The Chinese Man"...(I never figured out who he was but he made a good point..it might have been Bird Man...)

He would always post, "Stop, stop, you hitting head!"

His sardonic point was that a dead horse was being beaten so hard that it was being driven through the center of the planet and coming out on the other end and hitting him in the head... 8-)

That's the kind of discussion we've got going on here about "gun control"...
I disagree. You don't quit talking about something when its important and a change is needed. If people had stopped talking about slavery, Jim Crow laws, separate but equal, and racism, where would we be today? The freaking Constitution declared slaves 3/5 of a man, and didn't even count women as persons, but we changed that.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Sue U »

Lord Jim wrote:Oh gawd, this is such an old story...

"gun control" is one of those topics, (abortion and the death penalty immediately spring to mind as other examples) where every single argument...

And I do mean EV-E-RY SINGLE conceivable argument, left, right and center...

From the most radical positions at both ends of the spectrum, to the most moderate at the center, this has already been discussed, exhaustively..., ad nauseating...

There is not one argument on this subject that hasn't been made, responded to, then had a response to that response, and another response made again...

Not ONE...

All without any resolution or "meeting of the minds"...
Well, Jim, over the last 20 years I have in fact changed my mind on both the death penalty and the Second Amendment. Times change, circumstances change, people change, the country as a whole changes. You might find the status quo acceptable with respect to gun violence; I do not.
Guinevere wrote:You don't quit talking about something when its important and a change is needed. If people had stopped talking about slavery, Jim Crow laws, separate but equal, and racism, where would we be today? The freaking Constitution declared slaves 3/5 of a man, and didn't even count women as persons, but we changed that.
Exactly.
Guinevere wrote:Getting there.
Well, come on, girl, what's the hold-up?
GAH!

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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Lord Jim »

You might find the status quo acceptable with respect to gun violence; I do not.


That kind of sanctimonious, self-righteous garbage is every bit as demagogic and offensive to me as when the Wayne LaPierre types claim that people who hold my position have no respect for the Constitution and want to confiscate everybody's guns...

I have made very clear, at length and in detail, that I support a whole series of common sense restrictions and safe guards that I believe are fully Constitutional and if fully implemented would make a real difference in the level of gun carnage in this country while still respecting the basic right of law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms.

Polls consistently show that my position is the one embraced by the vast majority of the American people, but to radicals like LaPierre and Larry Pratt that makes me a gun confiscator, and to radicals on your end of the spectrum that makes me someone who's perfectly happy to see children blown away in mass killings...

The absolutist radicals on both sides of this can all go screw themselves as far as I'm concerned...
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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Long Run »

There are two different subjects: (1) gun control and (2) things that would have prevented this most recent and the prior slaughters. As Jim noted, the majority center of the country is willing to have a reasonable amount of general gun control laws to improve safety; the major stumbling block with getting there is that the extreme 2nd Amendment types see any compromise as another step toward eliminating/significantly curtailing their rights because they know that those who favor eliminating the 2nd Amendment will push for that.

With respect to preventing this most recent atrocity, the focus has to be on enforcing the laws we have, which would have prevented this clearly emotionally unstable person from owning any guns. There are two key pieces that have to be in place: first, develop better methods for determining when guns are in the hands of people who should not have them; and second, have better care for emotionally disturbed people, including making it easier to institutionalize people who are a likely danger to themselves or others (but then we run into another constitutional right) :? )

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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Guinevere »

If you want to go down that path, then lets talk about a health care system that appropriately identifies, treats, and manages mental health patients instead of: 1) vilifying and shaming them, and 2) pushing them out so they become someone else's problem.

But no, the Congress wants to spend all its time whining about the Affordable Care Act, and doesn't give a good goddamn about the actual citizens of this country.
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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Guinevere »

Sue U wrote: Well, come on, girl, what's the hold-up?
I don't yet know for myself, what the right solution is, and so I don't want to jump in/on/over/under/etc any bandwagons until I do.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Sue U »

Lord Jim wrote:
You might find the status quo acceptable with respect to gun violence; I do not.


That kind of sanctimonious, self-righteous garbage is every bit as demagogic and offensive to me as when the Wayne LaPierre types claim that people who hold my position have no respect for the Constitution and want to confiscate everybody's guns...

I have made very clear, at length and in detail, that I support a whole series of common sense restrictions and safe guards that I believe are fully Constitutional and if fully implemented would make a real difference in the level of gun carnage in this country while still respecting the basic right of law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms.

Polls consistently show that my position is the one embraced by the vast majority of the American people, but to radicals like LaPierre and Larry Pratt that makes me a gun confiscator, and to radicals on your end of the spectrum that makes me someone who's perfectly happy to see children blown away in mass killings...

The absolutist radicals on both sides of this can all go screw themselves as far as I'm concerned...
I do not believe you are "perfectly happy to see children blown away in mass killings," Jim. But it is you who are giving aid and comfort to the Wayne LaPierre-type absolutists by insisting that there be a constitutional right to guns . The problem is that "common sense restrictions and safeguards that ... are fully Constitutional" have proven to be a dismal failure, while those that might have had some effect have been thrown out as unconstitutional because they infringed on the "right" to bear arms. As a practical matter, the only way to implement effective regulation is to make gun ownership a privilege rather than a sacrosanct right.
GAH!

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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Sue U »

Long Run wrote:With respect to preventing this most recent atrocity, the focus has to be on enforcing the laws we have, which would have prevented this clearly emotionally unstable person from owning any guns. There are two key pieces that have to be in place: first, develop better methods for determining when guns are in the hands of people who should not have them; and second, have better care for emotionally disturbed people, including making it easier to institutionalize people who are a likely danger to themselves or others (but then we run into another constitutional right) :? )
Um, the existing gun laws actually were enforced in the case of Aaron Alexis. He had attempted to purchase an AR-15, but was denied because he wasn't a Virginia resident. Instead, he bought a shotgun. There is no law that would have prevented him from doing so.
GAH!

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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by liberty »

There are thing that can be done that would make the country safer and still be constitutional. A lot of the blame for nothing happening falls on the shoulders the lefts; their lack of respect for the constitution generates an enormous amount of distrust. If we could just trust each other a lot could be done. Generally, to liberals only the parts of the constitution that have any legitimacy are those that they favor. They along with conservative and moderates favor the first amendment but the first amendment has been expanded through interpretation way bound to its originally meaning. The first amendment was written to protect only two types of speech, religious and political; neither commercial speech or pornography were intended to included in the first amendment.

So why can’t violent video games be banned, that would help the mentally ill and the young?
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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Gob »

Lord Jim wrote:Yes Strop, I own a Walther PK 44....

Cheers Jim (that is a gun I take it...)
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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Econoline »

Contractor that vetted Snowden says it also ran background check for Navy Yard shooter
By Jia Lynn Yang and Matea Gold, Published: September 19

USIS, the Falls Church government contractor that handled the background check for National Security Agency leaker Edward Snowden, said Thursday that it also vetted Navy Yard shooter Aaron Alexis for his ­secret-level clearance in 2007.

The company, which is under criminal investigation over whether it misled the government about the thoroughness of its background checks, said earlier this week that it had not handled Alexis’s case.

USIS spokesman Ray Howell said the company got new information Thursday.

“Today we were informed that in 2007, USIS conducted a background check of Aaron Alexis” for the Office of Personnel Management, Howell said in a statement. “We are contractually prohibited from retaining case information gathered as part of the background checks we conduct for OPM and therefore are unable to comment further on the nature or scope of this or any other background check.”

USIS, which was spun off from the federal government in the 1990s, has become the largest private provider of government background checks. With 7,000 employees, the company handles about 45 percent of all background checks for the OPM, congressional staffers say.

Despite the investigation, there was no indication that USIS did anything improper when it vetted Alexis.

A statement late Thursday by the OPM division that handles security checks for most federal agencies said that the OPM has “reviewed the 2007 background investigation file for Aaron Alexis, and the agency believes that the file was complete and in compliance with all investigative standards.”

The statement by Merton W. Miller, associate director of OPM’s Federal Investigative Services, acknowledged that Alexis’s background investigation was carried out “with support from a Government contractor, USIS.”

“OPM’s involvement with matters related to Aaron Alexis’ security clearance ended when we submitted the case to the Department of Defense . . . for adjudication in December 2007,” Miller’s statement said. The DOD “did not ask OPM for any additional investigative actions after it received the completed background investigation.”

Government officials said this week that the 2007 background check uncovered an incident in which Alexis shot out the tires of a car. The 2004 incident was characterized as “malicious mischief.”

Two other run-ins with law enforcement and reports of more serious mental-health issues occurred years after the initial background check.

Lower-level clearances such as the one granted to Alexis typically remain valid for a decade.

The government’s security clearance process is not designed to flag people struggling with mental illness, experts said. The aim of the system is to root out individuals at risk of compromising classified information. Mental-health treatment is not a disqualifying factor, and there are few ways to alert security officials when someone with clearance develops mental-health problems, according to analysts and former government security officials.

Federal officials are trying to implement a system that would continuously evaluate personnel with classified security clearance. But with nearly 5 million federal workers holding secret or top-secret security clearance, government officials say they are struggling to keep track of all their cases.
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Re: Maybe Jethro, Tony and Ziva Can Take Him Down...

Post by Lord Jim »

In some cases outsourcing makes sense, but to outsource those responsible for vetting background checks for other independent contractor personnel is clearly penny wise and pound foolish....

These contractors are paid based on how many background checks they perform; this obviously creates a huge incentive for corner cutting in order to increase the volume of background checks performed...

In the case of the Traitor Snowden, his job hopping history should have been a red flag to give him closer scrutiny. The Alexis case is more problematic, since most of what should have raised red flags took place after the initial background check, (plus his security clearance was lower than Snowden's)

"Malicious mischief" (for which there was no prosecution) could have meant throwing a rock through the window of somebody you had a feud with...

In the Alexis case, a lot of balls were dropped by a lot of people over a number of years, beginning in 2004 when the arrest file for the tire shooting incident never made it to the prosecutor's office:
He was arrested but not charged, Seattle police said. The paperwork apparently was lost.

“That report never got to the Seattle city attorney’s office,” said Kimberly Mills, a spokeswoman for the city attorney. “Consequently, we never filed charges.”
http://www.kirotv.com/ap/ap/crime/alexi ... est/nZ3Ks/

Then because the report on that one incident is so vague and sketchy he's able to to pass the 2007 background check and join the navy and obtain a low level security clearance. (A clearance which was good for 10 years...something else that should probably be tightened up)

Then another ball was dropped in 2010, when a second shooting incident went unprosecuted:
Fort Worth police arrested Alexis in 2010 after he shot through the floor of his upstairs neighbor’s apartment. Alexis told police he was cleaning his gun while cooking and it accidentally went off. The neighbor told police she believed the shooting was intentional.

According to a police report, Alexis complained often that the neighbor made too much noise and confronted her in the parking lot several days before the shooting. When police went to Alexis’ apartment, he didn’t answer their knocks. After paramedics arrived, he came to the door and told police the shooting was an accident.

Police arrested Alexis, but the Tarrant County district attorney’s office decided not to prosecute. According to Tarrant County court records, Alexis was evicted from the apartment weeks later.
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/local-ne ... -worth.ece

Ball number three gets dropped when Alexis receives an honorable rather than a general discharge from the navy. (A general discharge would certainly have raised flags in the vetting process of the contractors job...which is separate from the vetting process done earlier by USIS)
Initial reports indicated the man, Aaron Alexis, a 34-year-old Navy contractor, had received a general discharge from the Reserve, a category that suggests an unsatisfactory record. But the Navy official said Alexis had in fact applied for and received an honorable discharge.

A military official said that before discharging Alexis honorably, the Navy had been pursuing a general discharge against him on a series of eight to 10 misconduct charges, ranging from traffic offenses to disorderly conduct.

However, when it became evident the case against Alexis would not support a general discharge, he was allowed to apply for an early discharge under what is known as the Early Enlisted Transition Program, which is only used for honorable discharges, the military official said.

Alexis had a spate of run-ins with both civilian and military authorities while he was in the Navy Reserve as full-time support employee. He was arrested in DeKalb County, Georgia, in 2009 on a disorderly conduct charge, [again no prosecution] and was accused of discharging a firearm by authorities in Fort Worth, Texas.

His misconduct in the Navy Reserve included everything from unauthorized absences from work to insubordination and disorderly conduct, including one involving drunkenness.

He received non-judicial punishment from the military for both the military and civilian misconduct charges, said a Navy official, who did not know the exact punishment.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/09/ ... OF20130917

If a list of charges as long as that (admittedly many of them minor, but repeated) also including two civilian arrests isn't enough to "support" a general discharge, then that's something else that needs serious re-thinking.

But ball drop number four was the worst of all, and could have directly prevented this tragedy:
WASHINGTON — Police in Rhode Island warned the U.S. Navy last month that Aaron Alexis was hallucinating and hearing voices, and security officials at the local Navy base where he worked promised to look into the matter.

Newport Police Lt. William Fitzgerald said Wednesday that officers had faxed a copy of their report to the Newport Naval Station after Alexis told them on Aug. 7 that he was being threatened by unseen people and feared that "some sort of microwave machine" was penetrating his body.

"We faxed it to them that same day, an hour after we spoke to Mr. Alexis," Fitzgerald said. "They said they would look into it, that they would follow up on it. It was a routine thing for us to give them a heads-up."

A Navy official in Washington said Navy security agents in Newport had reviewed the allegations and decided Alexis was not a threat to the installation or to himself. He called the notification "routine" and said security personnel apparently did not interview Alexis or revoke his security clearance.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-nav ... 0934.story

So it's "routine" for the navy to receive notifications from civilian police departments that contractor personnel working on their bases are "hallucinating and hearing voices" and think they are "being threatened by unseen people and feared that 'some sort of microwave machine' was penetrating his body" ?

Really? If that's true that's quite disturbing and raises a whole new set of troubling questions....

(But somehow I doubt that's the case. It seems much more likely that it was a case of somebody being either too lazy, incompetent, or poorly trained to follow up properly.)
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