Barack Pinocchio Obama...

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Lord Jim
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Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Lord Jim »

Obama’s pledge that ‘no one will take away’ your health plan

“That means that no matter how we reform health care, we will keep this promise to the American people: If you like your doctor, you will be able to keep your doctor, period. If you like your health-care plan, you’ll be able to keep your health-care plan, period. No one will take it away, no matter what.”

– President Obama, speech to the American Medical Association, June 15, 2009 (as the health-care law was being written.)

“And if you like your insurance plan, you will keep it. No one will be able to take that away from you. It hasn’t happened yet. It won’t happen in the future.”

– Obama, remarks in Portland, April 1, 2010, after the health-care law was signed into law.

“FACT: Nothing in #Obamacare forces people out of their health plans. No change is required unless insurance companies change existing plans.”

– tweet by Obama aide Valerie Jarrett, Oct. 28, 2013, after NBC News airs a report that the Obama administration knew “millions” could not keep their health insurance.

Many readers have asked us to step back into time and review these statements by the president now that it appears that as many as 2 million people may need to get a new insurance plan as the Affordable Care Act, a.k.a. Obamacare, goes into effect in 2014. As we were considering those requests, one of the president’s most senior advisers then tweeted a statement on the same issue that cried out for fact checking.
The Facts

The president’s pledge that “if you like your insurance, you will keep it” is one of the most memorable of his presidency. It was also an extraordinarily bold — and possibly foolish — pledge, unless he thought he simply could dictate exactly how the insurance industry must work.

At the time, some observers noted the problems with Obama’s promise.

After Obama made his speech before the AMA, the Associated Press ran a smart analysis — “Promises, Promises: Obama’s Health Plan Guarantee” — that demonstrated how it would be all but impossible for the president to keep that pledge. The article noted that the Congressional Budget Office assumed that 10 million Americans would need to seek new insurance under the Senate version of the bill.

Meanwhile, in the Republican weekly address on Aug. 24, 2009, Rep. Tom Price (R-Ga.), a doctor, made this point: “On the stump, the president regularly tells Americans that ‘if you like your plan, you can keep your plan.’ But if you read the bill, that just isn’t so. For starters, within five years, every health-care plan will have to meet a new federal definition for coverage — one that your current plan might not match, even if you like it.”

One might excuse the president for making an aspirational pledge as the health-care bill was being drafted, but it turns out he kept saying it after the bill was signed into law. By that point, there should have been no question about the potential impact of the law on insurance plans, especially in the individual market.

As we have noted, a key part of the law is forcing insurers to offer an “essential health benefits” package, providing coverage in 10 categories. The list includes: ambulatory patient services; emergency services; hospitalization; maternity and newborn care; mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioral health treatment; prescription drugs; rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices; laboratory services; preventive and wellness services and chronic disease management; and pediatric services, including oral and vision care.

For some plans, this would be a big change. In 2011, the Department of Health and Human Services noted: “62 percent of enrollees do not have coverage for maternity services; 34 percent of enrollees do not have coverage for substance abuse services; 18 percent of enrollees do not have coverage for mental health services; 9 percent of enrollees do not have coverage for prescription drugs.”

The law did allow “grandfathered” plans — for people who had obtained their insurance before the law was signed on March 23, 2010 — to escape this requirement and some other aspects of the law. But the regulations written by HHS while implementing the law set some tough guidelines, so that if an insurance company makes changes to a plan’s benefits or how much members pay through premiums, co-pays or deductibles, then a person’s plan likely loses that status.

If you dig into the regulations (go to page 34560), you will see that HHS wrote them extremely tight. One provision says that if co-payment increases by more than $5, plus medical cost of inflation, then the plan can no longer be grandfathered. (With last year’s inflation rate of 4 percent, that means the co-pay could not increase by more than $5.20.) Another provision says the co-insurance rate could not be increased at all above the level it was on March 23, 2010.

While one might applaud an effort to rid the country of inadequate insurance, the net effect is that over time, the plans would no longer meet the many tests for staying grandfathered. Already, the percentage of people who get coverage from their job via a grandfathered plan has dropped from 56 percent in 2011 to 36 percent in 2013.

In the individual insurance market, few plans were expected to meet the “grandfathered” requirements, which is why many people are now receiving notices that their old plan is terminated and they need to sign up for different coverage. Again, this should be no surprise. As HHS noted in a footnote of a report earlier this year: “We note that, as the Affordable Care Act is implemented, we expect grandfathered coverage to diminish, particularly in the individual market.”

Indeed, at least six states — Virginia, Idaho, Kentucky, Louisiana, Wyoming and Kansas — require insurance companies to cancel existing policies, rather than amend them, if the grandfathered coverage lapses.

Now, it’s important to note that many people — perhaps a large majority — are receiving notices that they have lost their insurance plan because they were never grandfathered in the first place. In other words, they got a plan after the bill was signed into law back in 2010. If that’s the case, they have no option but to accept the more comprehensive insurance mandated by the law.

Still, it’s worth remembering that insurance companies pressed throughout the health-care debate to allow people to keep the policy they had effective at the end of 2013. The consequences of the unusual March 23, 2010, cut-off date are now being felt. HHS, when it drafted the interim rules, estimated that between 40 and 67 percent of policies in the individual market are in effect for less than one year. “These estimates assume that the policies that terminate are replaced by new individual policies, and that these new policies are not, by definition, grandfathered,” the rules noted. (See page 34553.)

Moreover, it’s certainly incorrect to claim, as some Republicans have, that people are losing insurance coverage. Instead, in virtually all cases, it’s being replaced with probably better (and possibly more expensive) insurance.

In recent days, administration officials have argued that the plans that are going away are “substandard” and lacked essential protections — and that many people may qualify for tax credits to mitigate the higher premiums that may result from the new requirements.

“Now folks are transitioning to the new standards of the Affordable Care Act which guarantee you can’t be denied, you won’t be kicked off of a policy because you developed a problem, you may be eligible for tax credits, depending on your income,” said Marilyn Tavenner, administrator of the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. “So these are important protections that are now available through the Affordable Care Act.”

Or, as White House spokesman Jay Carney put it: “It’s correct that substandard plans that don’t provide minimum services that have a lot of fine print that leaves consumers in the lurch, often because of annual caps or lifetime caps or carve-outs for some preexisting conditions, those are no longer allowed — because the Affordable Care Act is built on the premise that health care is not a privilege, it’s a right, and there should be minimum standards for the plans available to Americans across the country.”[Including maternity care for 30 year old single men and 55 year old women :roll: ]

But such assertions do not really explain the president’s promise — or Jarrett’s tweet. There may be a certain percentage of people who were happy with their “substandard” plan, presumably because it cost relatively little. And while Jarrett claimed that “nothing” in the law is forcing people out of their plans “unless insurance companies change plans,” she is describing rules written by the president’s aides that were designed to make it difficult for plans to remain grandfathered for very long.

As the HHS footnote mentioned above stated: “We note that, as the Affordable Care Act is implemented, we expect grandfathered coverage to diminish, particularly in the individual market.”
The Pinocchio Test

The administration is defending this pledge with a rather slim reed — that there is nothing in the law that makes insurance companies force people out of plans they were enrolled in before the law passed. That explanation conveniently ignores the regulations written by the administration to implement the law. Moreover, it also ignores the fact that the purpose of the law was to bolster coverage and mandate a robust set of benefits, whether someone wanted to pay for it or not.

The president’s statements were sweeping and unequivocal — and made both before and after the bill became law. The White House now cites technicalities to avoid admitting that he went too far in his repeated pledge, which, after all, is one of the most famous statements of his presidency.

The president’s promise apparently came with a very large caveat: “If you like your health care plan, you’ll be able to keep your health care plan — if we deem it to be adequate.”

Four Pinocchios
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fac ... alth-plan/
I think this is potentially a huge political problem for Obama, and the Dems in the mid-term elections...

Because it's so simple and easy for people to grasp...(despite all the ferocious tap dancing and spinning that's going on now by the Administration and their apologists to try and re-write the record)

We can argue about whether or not these were good policies or bad policies, or whether people will be better off or worse off, blah blah blah yada yada yada...

But one thing at this point is absolutely indisputable...

The President Of The United States knowingly lied his ass off dozens and dozens of times, in venues great and small, (from those college auditoriums with adoring crowds that he's so fond of, right up the The State Of The Union Address) when he said "If you like your health insurance plan, you can keep your plan. Period."

Apparently, instead of saying "Period" he should have said "comma" or perhaps, "semi-colon"...

The one thing Barack Obama has had going for him, even in the toughest of times when his job approval rating has been low, is the widely held perception that he is personally an honest and likeable fellow...the poll numbers on that have consistently been in the upper 50s to low 60s, even when his job approval rating has been in the low 40s...

That's shot to hell now...(and the early polling now that it's obvious he was lying about this, confirms it)

I know that many liberals don't care that he lied about this, since viewing most folks as simple minded cretins who don't know what's "in their own best interest" is a central tenant of their ideology; they figure that they're doing these dummies a favor, so even if they lied to them about it, well, it ain't no big thang ...

But most people don't think that way...

Between this, the website fiasco, and the third shoe that will drop if they don't hit that 2.7 million number of young healthy enrollees, (if that doesn't happen premiums on the Obamacare plans will go through the roof...at the moment more than 80% of the people signing up are signing up for the expanded Medicare provisions; not paid plans) the Dems are staring at real problems for the mid-terms...

It's definitely possible that Obamacare may be such a five alarm clusterfuck, that it will rescue the House GOP from their own stupidity, (though I have every confidence that this bunch will still piss opportunity away; we may have another idiotic government shutdown in January, and perhaps another in May... :roll: )
Last edited by Lord Jim on Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Lord Jim »

I think it's pretty obvious why Obama lied about this...(and I'm sure that he didn't lie about it for anything he saw as a nefarious reason; in his mind I'm sure he felt that the lie was serving The Greater Good...)

From the outset this scheme never had strong popular support, and he was relying on razor thin margins in both Houses of Congress (even when the Dems controlled the House) to get it through...

If he had been anything less than absolutely categorical and unequivocal in his assurances to the public about the ability of folks to keep whatever insurance plan they already had, the whole thing would have been sunk...

That approach got Obamacare passed into law, but now it's coming back to bite him in the ass...
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Joe Guy
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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Joe Guy »

What Obamanocchio should have said is, "If your current plan meets the new requirements, it cannot be taken away from you."

Although the net result is people get a better plan, the cost is too high. I heard something in passing on the radio last night that a bill has been introduced (by a republican) to correct this problem.

I don't have any details on what the plan is but I'm sure something will change.

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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Long Run »

Well, and add to that they knew the law would end all of the state-sponsored high-risk pool plans (for folks with pre-existing conditions who could not get regular insurance). All of those insureds, millions of people, have received notice that they need to find a new plan in the Exchange. Clearly, that unequivocal "you can keep your plan" statement was not intended for them.

Really, though, this whole story line -- was it a lie of just typical political hyperbole -- is more about politics. I think most people knew there would be dramatic changes and that their health plan might go away or the cost might rise dramatically -- that is why the law has been unpopular from the start, at least with people who already have coverage.

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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Big RR »

To be fair, it's fairly disingenuous of insurance companies to change the terms of a grandfathered plan and then complain that a government is not allowing you to keep your current (when the law was passed) insurance. They are changing it, and not because of any government mandate, so it is your insurer not allowing you to keep your "current plan", not the government.

Now people can draw whatever conclusions they wish from Obama's statements, but I think his best defense is saying "he, it's the insurance companies, not us".

there's a lot wrong with the ACA, and I still expect it to be a real problem (especially if the penalty for healthy people not signing up is not significant as compared to premiums), but it's the plan congress passed, for better or worse. As for the midterm elections, my guess is that the big problems won't surface until after them, and that the tea party made such asses of themselves with trying to defund the program, that out and out ranting about thing like this could well backfire.

Are the people dummies/ of course not. But they have no great love for the insurance companies either, who they see raising their (or their share of) the premiums, reducing coverage (the newest is coinsurance), and not letting them keep their current policies either. It just has to be spun the right way.

LR---that's a bigger problem, but of course the persons affected are a much smaller pool (who many see a jacking up rates by filing claims).

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Lord Jim
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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Lord Jim »

I heard something in passing on the radio last night that a bill has been introduced (by a republican) to correct this problem.
Yes Joe, it's called the "Keep Your Health Plan Act" and I suspect it will pass with strong bi-partisan support, and if Obama is smart he'll embrace it and agree to sign it into law...(Since it would make the promise he made over and over again a reality...If the Administration decides to come out against this, it will be a really boneheaded and politically tone deaf move...)
RICHLAND, MI – Congressman Fred Upton said he hopes to fast-track legislation he introduced Monday that would offer Americans a one-year grace period to keep their old insurance policies.
Upton.jpgCongressman Fred Upton speaks to the Rotary Club of Gull Lake Area Oct. 31.Yvonne Zipp | Kalamazoo Gazette

Within two days of its introduction, the "Keep Your Health Plan Act" has attracted more than 90 cosponsors, he said at a Thursday morning meeting at the Rotary Club of Gull Lake Area. Upton said that he's also speaking with Democratic senators about the bill.

"I think we're going to have this on the fast track," said Upton, R-St. Joseph. "I'm pushing the leadership to see if we can't bring this bill up soon, prior to Thanksgiving."

Under the proposed legislation, Americans could keep their current insurance plans in 2014, if they chose, even if those plans would have been canceled under the new health-care law. They also would not face a fine if those plans did not offer sufficient coverage under the new law.

Upton said that, when the Affordable Care Act, commonly called Obamacare, originally passed, such plans were supposed to be grandfathered in. He called the new plan a question "of fairness. If you can delay the employer mandate for one year, as the president has done, why not the individual mandate, as well?"

CBS News reported that so far, more than 2 million Americans have been told their current coverage is being canceled as of Jan. 1, 2014.
http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/ind ... ast_t.html

There's a similar bill now also in the Senate:


In response to the growing outcry over insurance-plan cancellations, Sen. Ron Johnson, R-Wis., introduced a bill Wednesday to allow consumers to keep their current plans under Obamacare.

The "If You Like Your Health Care, You Can Keep It Act" addresses what Johnson says was a false promise by President Obama—"If you like your plan, you can keep it" under the health-care law.

"It was totally false advertising," Johnson said in an appearance on Fox and Friends Thursday morning.

Obama's claim has taken heat recently as many individuals receive cancellation notices from their insurers. The administration maintains that cancellations were going on long before Obamacare.

Individuals are able to stay on "grandfathered plans" under the law, unless insurers significantly change them. Any new plans must offer the protections guaranteed under the Affordable Care Act.

Obama said Wednesday that individuals who were dropped from coverage can find quality plans on the health-care exchanges.

Johnson recognized that Congress wouldn't be able to allow every American to keep their plan unless the law is repealed.

His bill had 37 cosponsors as of Wednesday afternoon.

Johnson's legislation follows a similar measure introduced by House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Fred Upton, R-Mich., on Monday, called the "Keep Your Health Plan Act."
http://www.nationaljournal.com/health-c ... t-20131031
Last edited by Lord Jim on Fri Nov 01, 2013 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Lord Jim »

I think his best defense is saying "he, it's the insurance companies, not us".
That may apply in some cases, but overall Big RR it doesn't wash, since no plan that doesn't meet the Obamacare "standards" that was purchased after 2010 is eligible for "grandfathering", whether the insurance companies made changes or not...

If you're a 30 year old single man or a 55 year old woman who's insurance plan doesn't cover maternity costs, your plan is toast; period....

That isn't the doing of the insurance companies; that's the law under Obamacare...

That's entirely on the government.
was it a lie of just typical political hyperbole
I don't accuse Presidents of deliberately lying very often, whether I agree with them politically or not (I've never accused Obama of it before) because I realize that most of the time things are more complicated than that...

As you point out Long Run, some things are exaggerated or "over stated" just for political effect...

And also Presidents get a lot of conflicting information from numerous sources, so in many cases determining the "truth" is basically a judgement call; and if the judgement later turns out to have been wrong, then it's just that; "wrong".

Saying something that turns out not to be true doesn't make you a liar if you sincerely believed it was true at the time you said it. (Rabid GWB haters to this day continue to insist that Bush "deliberately lied " to get us into Iraq, while not a single shred of proof exists to back up this claim.)

However, I believe this is different...

There is an enormous body of evidence that shows that Barack Obama knew that what he said repeatedly, (for years, as recently as this past September 26th) regarding the ability of people to keep their existing healthcare plans was false at the time he said it.

Knowing that what you're saying is false at the time you're saying it, is pretty much the definition of a "lie"...
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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Crackpot »

So what you're really saying is the dumb as rocks defense works for Bush but not for Obama. ;)
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Lord Jim »

CP, the Obama Administration and its allies in the congress and the media have already resorted to the "Hey, we're not any more incompetent than George Bush" defense by trying to compare the Healthcare.gov meltdown to the glitches experienced in the first days of Medicare Part D website... 8-)
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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Big RR »

There is an enormous body of evidence that shows that Barack Obama knew that what he said repeatedly, (for years, as recently as this past September 26th) regarding the ability of people to keep their existing healthcare plans was false at the time he said it.
Point taken Jim, and you may well be right, especially if he's said the same thing much more recently than 2010 (he may have, I just don't recall the exact words). And, FWIW, this is one of the things I see as a big problem with the ACA; people are going to be paying more for insurance which will likely be better coverage than they have now, even though they won't see it that way (coverage for pregnancy doesn't affect you until someone in the family is pregnant; enhanced benefits for seriously debilitating diseases (which often bankrupt persons with even good insurance) are only seen to be of value if you get one of those diseases and, thankfully, few do. Face it, insurance is not a bank, it is paying to insure against catastrophe; clearly most people are not going to get back what they paid into it. And so they'll complain about all that coverage they don't want, at least until they're one of the unlucky ones who needs it.

Lying or misleading people only plays into this dissatisfaction; honesty would be a lot better. But there's damn little of that in Washington.

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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Econoline »

Crackpot wrote:...the dumb as rocks defense works for Bush but not for Obama.
Well, yeah...and there's a reason for that... :lol:
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Econoline »

People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Andrew D »

Political distractions aside, the fact remains that most Americans will be better off thanks to the Affordable Care Act than they were before it.
Reason is valuable only when it performs against the wordless physical background of the universe.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Lord Jim »

What utter, shameless mendacity:
“Now, if you have or had one of these plans before the Affordable Care Act came into law and you really like that plan, what we said was you could keep it, if it hasn’t changed since the law was passed,” he said.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... an-promise
Like Warner Wolf says, let's go to the tape:
"If you're one of the more than 250 million Americans who already have health insurance, you will keep your health insurance."

Barack Obama on Thursday, June 28th, 2012 in a speech at the White House

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... aw-those-/


And actually those clips are kind to Obama, because frequently after repeating this false assertion he would add something attacking or ridiculing those who would dare to suggest otherwise...

I defy anyone to find anywhere in the numerous categorical statements he made, a single time where he refers to "before the Affordable Care Act came into law", or "if it hasn't changed"...

Which he now attempts to claim with a straight face is what he said all along...

Look, I certainly did not at this point expect Obama to speak the pure truth, which would be something like this:

"Yes, I deliberately lied about everyone being able to keep their health plan. I did so at first, because if I hadn't I would never have been able to get the bill passed. And I continued to do so because if I hadn't it would have endangered my re-election."

But he could have said something like this:

"In retrospect, yes, what I said could have been said better, and I regret that. But I firmly believe that this plan as it unfolds will leave all Americans better off in terms of healthcare than the way things were before."

And then he could have gone on and said, that even though he thinks a lot of these policies are "sub-standard" that in order to make the assurances he gave absolutely accurate, that he will sign the "You Can Keep Your Plan" legislation now moving through both houses of Congress.

That approach would help get this behind him...

But instead, he has doubled down on lying; he has now chosen to lie about lying...

He's picked an Orwellian path, but this path has a huge problem; unlike in 1984 there's no Memory Hole where he can conveniently drop the record of what he has said...

Either the President is being very poorly served by the second term B-Team political advice he is getting, or he is acting out of pure personal arrogance; either way he's making a huge political blunder by choosing this course...

His objective should be to put this part of the story behind him...it's a complete loser for him... all he has done by doubling down on lying is fan the flames, give the story additional legs, and make it an even more central part of the narrative...

Unless and until Obama finally comes up with some sort of "modified, limited hang-out route" and at least makes some sort of admission about being "inaccurate" this will remain front and center...

The next time the President holds a real press conference, the first 10 questions will be about this, and that will be before they even get to the website...

I don't know what he thinks he's doing with this, but it's a really poor strategy...He may not have to face re-election but a lot of his party does, and this sort of thing could give him a Congress the last two years of his Presidency that will make him think back fondly on the current Congress as The Good Old Days...

Like the old saying, goes, "the first rule when you find yourself in a hole, is that you stop digging". Instead he's digging deeper....(We ought to invite him to join this board; there are a couple of folks here he'd fit right in with... 8-) )

Ah jest don't git it.... :shrug
Last edited by Lord Jim on Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by rubato »

“Now, if you have or had one of these plans before the Affordable Care Act came into law and you really like that plan, what we said was you could keep it, if it hasn’t changed since the law was passed,” he said.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... an-promise
Unless your insurance company cancelled it. Who was stupid enough to think that the ACA required insurance companies to continue coverage? Who was stupid enough to think that Obama had said that?

"... if it hasn’t changed since the law was passed ... "

Who here thinks that cancelling a policy changes it? All but one?




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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Lord Jim »

Rube I have to say that your full-throated endorsement of shameless mendacity and the strategy of continuing to dig while one is in a hole won't be the most surprising thing I hear today...

You being such an accomplished practitioner of both...

The man never said one word about not grandfathering in policies that had changes in the policy after the law was enacted; in fact he never qualified his categorical assurances about this by tying it to the effectiveness date of Obamacare at all... If you bought a policy in 2010, 2011, or 2012, (while he was still repeating this false assurance) that doesn't meet his one-size-fits-all standards, you are SOL, changes or no changes.
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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Big RR »

rubato--insurance company changes and cancellations aside, contrary to what Obama said, if you got insurance in 2011, the blanket assertion that you can keep your insurance is false; you needed to have it in 2010. It's pretty stupid of Obama and his speech writers to make statements that indicate otherwise (like in the clip Jim attached) and they clearly should have known better than to mislead people that way. To just correct the statement without admitting you made a mistake compounds this, but I think Obama is a person who is incapable of admitting he made a mistake. The sad thing is, it just feeds into the mistrust many have of the ACA, and make it less likely that it will work.

And, FWIW, I'm someone who thinks the ACA will place many Americans better off than before it, and fervently hope it works out. It's damn annoying, however, that the administration played right into the hands of the opposition with this.

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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Lord Jim »

To just correct the statement without admitting you made a mistake
It's actually worse than that, Big RR...

He's not just correcting the statement, he's actually trying to claim that the corrected statement is what he was saying all along...

Despite the fact that there's an immense and extensive record, recorded over a period of years, showing that this is absolutely not what he was saying...

I have a really hard time believing that there is any political adviser with any level of political experience at all that could have advised him that this was the smart way to handle this...

Which makes me think that this:
Obama is a person who is incapable of admitting he made a mistake.
May well be the most likely explanation...
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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by Crackpot »

I think you're missing the general political rule regarding anyone admitting a mistake there Jim.

Not saying it's particularly right but it is the current accepted political "wisdom"
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Re: Barack Pinocchio Obama...

Post by rubato »

Total now 1,622,521

513,625 Exchanges
1,108,896 Expanded Medicaid.

If you care about public policy being an instrument of positive social change then you're for Obama Care.

http://obamacaresignups.net/


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