A short history of democracy.

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rubato
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A short history of democracy.

Post by rubato »

Not the main point of the article, but the background illustrates just how recent the spread of democracy is. In many ways we are still at the beginning of the history of democracy.:

Figure 1. Global trends in governance, 1800-2012
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Looking at this chart you see a huge increase in autocracy post-WW II with an abrupt collapse at the end of the cold war; the communists and the capitalists both backed totalitarian governments who promised to support their side. With the end of the cold war that external meddling was ended and the economic benefits (read the article) of democracy were allowed to drive political change.

On a hopeful note; a huge transition happened in Africa at the same time. It has been only 20 years, not long enough to see the biggest results yet, but perhaps the crucial change has already happened and now we can look forward to a period of continuous improvement in the economies of sub-Saharan Africa. ??

Figure 2. African Trends in Governance, 1960-2012
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yrs,
rubato


"A man’s admiration for absolute government is proportionate to the contempt he feels for those around him."
― Alexis de Tocqueville

"Democracy is dead in Latin America"
- Augusto Pinochet

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Lord Jim
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by Lord Jim »

Looking at this chart you see a huge increase in autocracy post-WW II with an abrupt collapse at the end of the cold war
Thank you Mr. Reagan! :clap: :ok
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Joe Guy
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by Joe Guy »

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

So rube, is the black line representative of cereal sales?

For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Lord Jim
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by Lord Jim »

I was a little disappointed when I opened this thread...

Naturally when I saw a post from rubato that contained the word "history" in the title, I was expecting hilarity to ensue....

But all I got was a couple of graphs and a few straight forward words, none of his, uh, "unique perspectives"....
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rubato
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by rubato »

Dictatorships supported by Reagan:

Chile
Guatemala
Pilippines
Argentina
Iraq

Attempted Dictatorships:
Angola

Democratic movements suppressed by Reagan:

Nicaragua
El Salvador
Guatemala
South Africa

And of course he helped install the Taliban in Afghanistan

The collapse of autocracies happened only after his evil influence was gone.


yrs,
rubato

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Econoline
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by Econoline »

Lord Jim wrote:
Looking at this chart you see a huge increase in autocracy post-WW II with an abrupt collapse at the end of the cold war
Thank you Mr. Reagan Bush! :clap: :ok
Better? ;)
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
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Lord Jim
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by Lord Jim »

rubato wrote:Dictatorships supported by Reagan:

Chile
Guatemala
Pilippines
Argentina
Iraq

Attempted Dictatorships:
Angola

Democratic movements suppressed by Reagan:

Nicaragua
El Salvador
Guatemala
South Africa

And of course he helped install the Taliban in Afghanistan

The collapse of autocracies happened only after his evil influence was gone.


yrs,
rubato
LMAO!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

There you go rube, now that's more like the sort of fractured fairytale stuff I generally see when you're attempting to commit history....

That's much better. I knew you had it in you...
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Andrew D
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by Andrew D »

In this exchange:
Lord Jim wrote:
rubato wrote:Dictatorships supported by Reagan:

Chile
Guatemala
Pilippines
Argentina
Iraq

Attempted Dictatorships:
Angola

Democratic movements suppressed by Reagan:

Nicaragua
El Salvador
Guatemala
South Africa

And of course he helped install the Taliban in Afghanistan

The collapse of autocracies happened only after his evil influence was gone.


yrs,
rubato
LMAO!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

There you go rube, now that's more like the sort of fractured fairytale stuff I generally see when you're attempting to commit history....

That's much better. I knew you had it in you...
exactly which of rubato's assertions is/are incorrect?
Reason is valuable only when it performs against the wordless physical background of the universe.

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Econoline
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by Econoline »

My previous quip
Econoline wrote:
Thank you Mr. Reagan Bush! :clap: :ok
Better? ;)
was in response to rubato.
My more serious, more complete opinion (which I've stated before) would be expressed more like
Thank you, Mr. Truman, General Eisenhower, Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Johnson, Mr. Nixon, Mr. Ford, Mr. Carter, Mr. Reagan, and Mr. (G.H.W.) Bush.
It was a long, long ball game, and it's unfair to credit only the pitcher who was in the game for a few innings near the end.
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
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Joe Guy
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by Joe Guy »

Econoline wrote: ....It was a long, long ball game, and it's unfair to credit only the pitcher who was in the game for a few innings near the end.
But but... Reagan was the setup President and Bush was the closer. Since Reagan was in when we took the lead he gets the win.

I think that's what LJ means.... :D

rubato
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by rubato »

Reading the article would provide the ability to comment intelligently. Should someone want a break from their usual pure crap postings.


Yrs,
Rubato

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Joe Guy
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by Joe Guy »

Where is the link to the article?

Andrew D
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by Andrew D »

Econoline wrote:My previous quip
Econoline wrote:
Thank you Mr. Reagan Bush! :clap: :ok
Better? ;)
was in response to rubato.
My more serious, more complete opinion (which I've stated before) would be expressed more like
Thank you, Mr. Truman, General Eisenhower, Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Johnson, Mr. Nixon, Mr. Ford, Mr. Carter, Mr. Reagan, and Mr. (G.H.W.) Bush.
It was a long, long ball game, and it's unfair to credit only the pitcher who was in the game for a few innings near the end.
And that assumes that we have seen the end.

Newsflash: The Cold War is still going, and China is winning.
Reason is valuable only when it performs against the wordless physical background of the universe.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

I thought the pure crap was from the anuscracies?
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

rubato
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by rubato »


liberty
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by liberty »

The three presidents that contributed the most to the free world’s victory in the cold war are John F Kennedy, LBJ and Ronald Reagan. People, mostly liberals, forget how anti-communist Kennedy really was. He was as anti-communist as Reagan in that he saw communism as evil and did all he could to fight it. He even went as far as trying to assassinate Castro, but Castro got him instead (opinion).

The reason President Reagan should be celebrated as the savior of the free world is that he turned defeat into victory. When he took over we were on the verge of losing the Cold War and he turned it around.
Last edited by liberty on Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Jim
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by Lord Jim »

.It was a long, long ball game, and it's unfair to credit only the pitcher who was in the game for a few innings near the end.
Yeah, well, when Mr. Reagan took the mound, the guy he was relieving had just been hammered for a bunch of runs, and left the bases loaded with nobody out...
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Big RR
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by Big RR »

Hammered for a bunch of runs? We are talking about the Cold War here, aren't we? Who was scoring the runs--the nearly bankrupt Russians? The rapidly changing Chinese? I don't even recall many of their players on base (unless you want to attribute every anti-American sentiment to the communists).

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Lord Jim
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Re: A short history of democracy.

Post by Lord Jim »

Lord Jim wrote:
The naive, Amateur Hour foreign policy of TIC was of course both a complete disaster for US and Western security and diplomacy, (a disaster which in some aspects we continue to pay for to this very day) and a policy approach that did not improve the level of freedom for one single human being anywhere on the planet . (As opposed to Reagan policies which resulted in a couple of hundred million people all across Eastern Europe today enjoying representative democracy.)

As I've pointed out before, the two countries where the "we won't support a pro-Western autocrat" policy were most vigorously pursued under Carter, proved to be the biggest disasters...

In Nicaragua, we wound up having a pro-American authoritarian regime replaced with an authoritarian Soviet client state, and in Iran, we wound up having a pro-Western autocrat replaced by the world's first anti-Western Islamo-fascist regime...(we're still paying for that one.... )

While these were the worst results of his disastrous policy, they were hardly the only ones....All over Africa, Soviet-aligned states bloomed like spring flowers, as the Russians rushed to take advantage of their unexepected good fortune....in Angola, in Mozambique, in Ethiopia....

It was not until the late 80's, after the Reagan Administration had put the Soviets back on their heels, (and undone much of the damage caused by Carter) that a country finally saw a successful transfer of power from an authoritarian leader to a real democracy; when under US pressure, and without substantial bloodshed, Ferdinand Marcos finally packed it in....

The necessary, essential pre-condition for a policy of pressuring pro-West dictators to accept democratic reforms to be a successful one, (both in terms of Western interests, and the well being of the people of those countries themselves) was the removal of the Soviet Union as a player ready willing and able to rush into to provide the support necessary to replace pro-Western dictatorships with pro-Soviet ones....

The historical record makes this quite clear. The proof is abundant; under Carter, not one single authoritarian regime anywhere was replaced by a democratic one; after the defeat of the Soviet Union, it's happened at every point of the compass. (This is particularly true not only in Eastern Europe, but in also in Latin America... and the peaceful transfer of power by the Apartheid regime in Africa is another case in point; so long as the ANC was a Soviet backed guerrilla movement, the Afrikaners were fully prepared to endure whatever sacrifices they had to make as a result international sanctions; it was only after this dynamic changed that they were ready to cut a deal. )

Now, in having this discussion with some folks over the years, I have sometimes received a counter argument, that goes something like this:

"Well, even if Carter tried to implement the policy badly and percipitently, you still have to give him credit for coming up with it. If he hadn't then subsequent Administrations wouldn't have incorporated it into their policies."

I completely reject this. Of course, all things being equal,the US is better off not supporting dictators, (in addition to being more in line with our values as a country, dictatorships tend to be more unstable and unreliable as partners, and supporting genuine democratic movements tends to provide much better relations for the US with those countries in the long run.)

But this is so obvious, that once the larger threat of enhanced Soviet power was removed, it is inconceivable to me that any Administration, of either party, would have failed to recognize it, Carter or no Carter.
ETA:

More countries fell into the Soviet sphere of influence in the mercifully brief four years of Carter's Presidency than at any time since the late 1940's...

On top of that this "on the verge of bankruptcy" country bankrolled Cuban mercenaries all over Africa, and for the first time surpassed the US in surface navy fleet strength...

Yeah, there were a helluva lot of "runs"....
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