Santa vs St Nick

[Gob]

A vicar has caused a festive furore after accidentally breaking the news to a group of primary school pupils that Father Christmas doesn't really exist.

Parents at Charter primary school in the Wiltshire market town of Chippenham were left fielding some very awkward questions after Canon Simon Tatton-Brown explained how Santa was based on the legend of Saint Nicholas.

Some parents threatened to pull their children out of a Christmas concert at his church, St Andrew's, in protest, arguing that they would not barge into one of his services and announce that the story of Jesus was a fiction.

Tatton-Brown's slip came as he delivered his festive address to pupils. A "technical issue" meant he had to work without notes and he told them that many believed the figure of Father Christmas was based on Saint Nicholas, a fourth-century saint renowned for his secret gift-giving.

The very youngest pupils were not at the assembly but many others went home with their belief in Santa shattered. Realising his error, Tatton-Brown, who is due to retire on New Year's Eve, apologised to the school.

But not all parents were in a forgiving mood.

Linzi Merritt, whose son Levi, nine, attends the school, said: "We wouldn't just walk into the church during one of his services and tell everyone there that Jesus isn't real. He's a person of authority and it's not his place to be telling the children that.

"It's the older children who have suffered the most because their parents can't really talk their way out of it like the parents of younger children can.

"Loads of kids went home crying – it has ruined Christmas for them. It wasn't a nice story for children to hear, there were lots more he could have told. Not only has he spoiled Father Christmas for them, a lot of them are now questioning the existence of the tooth fairy as well."

Kerry Butler, whose nine-year-old daughter Kacey is a pupil, said: "All the parents here are very upset. I think it's a lot worse for the older children because a lot of them are on the cusp of not believing anymore and this could have pushed them over the edge."

Tatton-Brown wrote to headteacher Sarah Flack to apologise. His letter said: "I was very sorry to hear of the trouble following my assembly. I talked about Saint Nicholas, and the stories about him, which tells us why Santa Claus brings gifts at Christmas.

"I am sorry if this was misunderstood. I fully support parents who want their young children to enjoy the Christmas stories, including Father Christmas, and I had no intention of undermining their belief in the reality of Santa Claus."

The school has accepted his apology. Tatton-Brown was getting on with his preparations for Christmas on Thursday and referring inquiries to the diocese of Bristol.

A spokesman said: "When Simon discovered that what he had said had cast into doubt the existence of Santa Claus, he contacted the headteacher by phone and volunteered an apology to be sent to parents. The school accepted his apology and sent it out to parents. It looks forward to continuing its links with St Andrew's, including holding its carol service there this Christmas."

[Big RR]

It seems like it was an honest mistake for which he apologized. If parents really have problems telling kids how to deal with it, they can say sometimes when someone gets as old as that priest, their minds slip. But as I recall, and with my kids, I don't think they really believed in the existence of a santa claus (or the tooth fairy for that matter) much beyond 5 or 6; we/they played along for the gifts, but we/they knew better. I'd honestly be more concerned of kids older than that who went home in tears and had their christmas ruined; I'd wonder if there's something wrong with them.

[Gob]

He's lucky he's not in the USA, think of the lawsuits!

[Big RR]

Well in the US, because it's a church school (which I'm assuming this is), there would be a lot more latitude given to what a religious leader or teacher could say without fear of suit. Parents choose to send their kids to these schools because of the religious/moral education given by the religious affiliation.

[Gob]

Should Jesus be portrayed as a white man despite hailing from the Middle East? Should Santa always be depicted as white, despite being a fictional character based on a fourth century Greek Christian bishop?

Well, a commentator on US network Fox News has something to say on the matter.

The row was prompted by an article published on the US website the Slate, entitled: 'Santa Claus Should Not Be A White Man Anymore'. The piece argues that from now on Santa should be depicted as - wait for it - a penguin.

It explains how the confusion caused by assigning an arbitrary race to a fictitious person could be overcome by making Santa into a cuddly bird.

Its author Aisha Harris states: "It’s time to hand over the reins to those deer and let the universally beloved waddling bird warm the hearts of children everywhere, regardless of the color of their skin."

Responding to the story Megyn Kelly, a presenter on the right-wing Fox News network, set out to put children straight on the matter.

"When I saw this headline I kinda laughed and I said, "Oh, this is ridiculous. Yet another person claiming it's racist to have a white Santa," Kelly begins.

"And by the way, for all you kids watching at home, Santa just is white. But this person is maybe just arguing that we should also have a black Santa. But, you know, Santa is what he is, and just so you know, we're just debating this because someone wrote about it, kids," she adds.

A fellow contributor to the show Jedediah Bila defended Harris' article, prompting another outburst from Kelly. "Just because it makes you feel uncomfortable doesn't mean it has to change," she said.

"You know, I mean, Jesus was a white man too. He was a historical figure; that's a verifiable fact as is Santa, I want you kids watching to know that - but my point is: how do you revise it, in the middle of the legacy of the story, and change Santa from white to black?"

So, there you go. A 'verifiable fact', no less.

[Lord Jim]

A vicar has caused a festive furore after accidentally breaking the news to a group of primary school pupils that Father Christmas doesn't really exist

"DEAR EDITOR: I am 8 years old.
"Some of my little friends say there is no Santa Claus.
"Papa says, 'If you see it in THE SUN it's so.'
"Please tell me the truth; is there a Santa Claus?

"VIRGINIA O'HANLON.
"115 WEST NINETY-FIFTH STREET."

VIRGINIA, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Virginia, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in Santa Claus! You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the chimneys on Christmas Eve to catch Santa Claus, but even if they did not see Santa Claus coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees Santa Claus, but that is no sign that there is no Santa Claus. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You may tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, VIRGINIA, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

No Santa Claus! Thank God! he lives, and he lives forever. A thousand years from now, Virginia, nay, ten times ten thousand years from now, he will continue to make glad the heart of childhood.[/i

"You're not really Santa Claus... You're just a nice old man with white whiskers...Like my mommy said...

[rubato]

I don't see how anyone can complain just because children were told the truth.

Do you want them to grow up knowing that you'll lie to them just for your own pleasure?



yrs,
rubato

[Joe Guy]

Good point.

At about age 5 we should begin telling children that they are eventually going to feel a lot of pain because they will get old and shriveled. If they don't do something right tell them they're making stupid mistakes because their brains aren't yet developed. Also, we should tell (a lot of) them that they were a mistake made in the backseat of a car or in a motel when daddy put his penis in mommy.

etc....

[Gob]

I don't see how anyone can complain just because children were told the truth.

Do you want them to grow up knowing that you'll lie to them just for your own pleasure?



yrs,
rubato

Thank god we have our resident expert/oracle on child rearing to keep us informed.

[Lord Jim]

I don't see how anyone can complain just because children were told the truth.

Do you want them to grow up knowing that you'll lie to them just for your own pleasure?

yrs,
rubato

Brave words from a man who's wife wont even let him have a puppy....

[Big RR]

And FWIW, the real problem is that he had no business in telling the children their parents were lying to them. Even if you disagree with the "lie", you're not doing the kids or the parents any favors by telling the kids there's no Santa, or your daddy's not your real daddy, or your adopted, or grandpa committed suicide and blew his brains out, or any other number of fictions young kids are told until the parents think they're old enough to understand. The parents know much more about their kids and what they are ready to hear, or not, than some visiting vicar does.

[Scooter]

It doesn't look like that was his intent at all - saying that Santa Claus is based on St. Nicholas without thinking through the implications that would have for young children is not the same as saying "Santa Claus doesn't exist, and your parents have been lying to you about it all this time."

[Joe Guy]

Not only has he spoiled Father Christmas for them, a lot of them are now questioning the existence of the tooth fairy as well."

Oh...The Humanity!!! Those children will now realize that their parents were giving them money for their teeth instead of some pervert sneaking around in their houses in the dark with a sack of money.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I don't see how anyone can complain just because children were told the truth.

Do you want them to grow up knowing that you'll lie to them just for your own pleasure?
yrs,
rubato

Maybe it's for one's own pleasure, rube but I don't think that's the entire story. Undeniably, one gets more than a frisson of pleasure from enacting the yarn - maintaining the fantasy - waiting irritably until stupid hours of the morning for the little tykes to finally fall asleep so one can creep around setting out gifts, putting the milk back in the carton and the biscuits back in the barrel ensuring that some crumbs remain on the plate, filling the stockings, etc. It's a bit of magic for those years when they believe it - and those years go so very fast.

Eventually Christmas becomes a more prosaic calculation by pre-teens and teenagers as to how much money mum and dad really are willing to spend and they know who to blame when there is insufficiency - it used to be Santa; now it's the wrinklies at fault for not meeting expectation. All too soon it's just the money because it's easier all round.

No, I think I lied to them (as I was lied to - if you must put it that way) because the family enjoyed the fantasy together that there was a mystery that no one understood but which somehow brought not just gifts but wonder into an early winter morning.

This poor vicar apparently did rather more than just give the St Nicholas attribution (which by the way I and my kids were aware of - we rather thought that he remained alive somehow, bringing gifts as St Nick with Santa Claus being just another name) according to the Telegraph:

He told children that Father Christmas was based on a grisly legend about Saint Nicholas, who bought three murdered children back to life. The Church of England vicar described how the youngsters were killed by an evil butcher and placed in a barrel to be pickled and sold as ham.

I don't want your pagan Christmas ham!

Evidently he didn't tell this one:

In (St Nick's) most famous exploit, a poor man had three daughters but could not afford a proper dowry for them. This meant that they would remain unmarried and probably, in absence of any other possible employment, would have to become prostitutes. Hearing of the girls' plight, Nicholas decided to help them, but being too modest to help the family in public (or to save them the humiliation of accepting charity), he went to the house under the cover of night and threw three purses (one for each daughter) filled with gold coins through the window opening into the house.

Presumably he wasn't giving them a start on their new careers.

Meade

[Big RR]

saying that Santa Claus is based on St. Nicholas without thinking through the implications that would have for young children is not the same as saying "Santa Claus doesn't exist, and your parents have been lying to you about it all this time."

True Scooter, I was responding to the point rubato made about lying. As I said above, I thought this was most likely an honest mistake of, as you say, not thinking through the implications.

[MajGenl.Meade]

He told children that Father Christmas was based on a grisly legend about Saint Nicholas, who bought three murdered children back to life. The Church of England vicar described how the youngsters were killed by an evil butcher and placed in a barrel to be pickled and sold as ham.

I guess not thinking through the implications of telling 5 year olds about murdered children being pickled in barrels to be eaten later is an understandable slip - happens all the time to er.... no one at all.

[rubato]

Teaching children to believe in magical thinking is destructive to developing a functional world view.

Bribing them to do so is inexcusable.

It is important to tell the truth.

yrs,
rubato

[Gob]

Teaching children to believe in magical thinking is destructive to developing a functional world view.

Bribing them to do so is inexcusable.

It is important to tell the truth.

yrs,
rubato

This goes a long way to explaining why you're such a miserable little cunt.

[Lord Jim]

Teaching children to believe in magical thinking is destructive to developing a functional world view.

Is that your excuse?

Good gawd, what a miserable excuse for a human being...makes me want to take a long hot shower, just reading his post......

They ought to tear you down and erect a person where you stand....

[MajGenl.Meade]

Teaching children to believe in magical thinking is destructive to developing a functional world view.

I would say just the opposite - assuming I understand what the term "magical thinking" attempts to represent.

The essence of humanity (on one scale at least) is imagination, which is a polite word for fantasy. There must always be a form of encouragement to believe in the possibility of the impossible, the plausibility of the implausible and the sheer delight in wonder. I think there are about zero nation-dominating monsters who became that way by virtue of an early childhood belief in Santa Claus. OTOH Various Kim Ils of North Korea were doubtless raised in "scientific rationalism" and have an extremely disfunctional worldview.

Those without children (or who have raised robotic killers) are doubtless better equipped to dictate to those with children how they are to be raised.

Meade