Parents Don't Believe She is Dead...

[Joe Guy]

Read the article below. What do you think of the parents and the people supporting them? What about "The Hospital's" position?

Note: Three doctors have declared her brain dead.

Jahi McMath's family is running short of time
Jill Tucker
Updated 10:23 pm, Sunday, December 29, 2013

Children's Hospital Oakland officials confirmed Sunday they will turn off the machines sustaining Jahi McMath's body as soon as a legal injunction expires at 5 p.m. Monday unless otherwise ordered by a court.

"Barring any other court-order legal action by the family, the ventilator will be shut off at 5 p.m. tomorrow," said hospital spokesman Sam Singer. "It's tremendously sad, but that's what's going to occur."

The 13-year-old suffered complications and cardiac arrest after tonsil-removal surgery for sleep apnea on Dec. 9. Hospital doctors declared her dead on Dec. 12, although she remained connected to a respirator.

Her family believes Jahi is still alive and has sought another medical facility to take the girl.

Two possible California facilities declined, and officials at Children's in Oakland had no communication or information by Sunday evening about another unnamed option in New York cited by the family. Children's officials said so far no medical center has stepped forward to provide treatment to the body.

"We have been waiting since Friday, Dec. 27 - when we were first told by the family lawyer of a potential facility that might accept the body of Jahi - for a call from a physician to discuss with our medical staff what may be necessary to transfer the deceased," the hospital said in a statement Sunday afternoon. "Our physicians have yet to receive a single call or message from the (New York) facility under consideration."

The family's attorney Christopher Dolan did not respond to requests for comment.

A church fundraiser to support a transfer was reportedly canceled Sunday afternoon. Family members gathered instead for a prayer vigil, according to reports.

An online site collecting donations to pay for a transfer was still active Sunday.

Superior Court Judge Evelio Grillo has agreed with the hospital that Jahi has died. A restraining order requiring the hospital to keep the girl connected to a respirator expires Monday at 5 p.m.

No further court hearings are set for Monday, Singer said.

"Children's Hospital Oakland continues to support the family of Jahi McMath in this time of grief and loss over her death," the hospital said in a statement Sunday. "We continue to do so despite their lawyer's criticizing the very hospital that all along has been working hard to be accommodating to this grieving family."

Children's lawyer Douglas Straus said in a letter to Dolan on Sunday that the hospital has required three conditions to transfer Jahi, including assurance the new facility "understands the current condition of the dead body and what is being done to maintain it under Judge Grillo's temporary restraining order"; there is lawful transportation of the body; and authorization from the coroner to transfer the body.

"The family has not identified any facility with which Children's can have this dialogue," Straus wrote. "Nor have we been provided with a transportation plan or coroner authorization."

[rubato]

Teaching people to believe in make-believe fantasy and to ignore the real world is harmful.


yrs,
rubato

[Joe Guy]

Oh, now I get it. These parents won't accept their child's death because their own parents made them believe in Santa Claus.

[Crackpot]

I thought it was the mythical Santa Cruz Scientist.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I feel every sorrow for these parents who cannot accept the reality of what has happened. None of us want to let go - we all want to hold on. I see the words "church" and "prayer vigil" and I would seriously like to know more about their beliefs. What I fear is some kind of pentecostal/charismatic faith that in one way or another will leave them feeling that they themselves had "insufficient faith" for a miracle to occur. That may, of course, be a totally errant suspicion on my part.

When our son was dying, the bone marrow transplant eating him from the inside, we prayed and believed and trusted - and asked the doctors to stop pumping blood into him, to let him go. I've never regretted that - nor has my wife - we only regretted that our boy was no longer here with us. And without us - he was a cuss at times.

[Joe Guy]

Here's the latest....

(12-30) 17:04 PST Oakland -- A judge has extended a temporary restraining order prohibiting Children's Hospital Oakland from removing Jahi McMath from a ventilator, the hospital and family said Monday.

The temporary restraining order, which was scheduled to expire at 5 p.m., has been extended through 5 p.m. on January 7. Jahi's family sought the extension as they sought to move the girl to a long-term care facility in New York that they said is willing to take her.

Jahi was declared dead by doctors at Children's Hospital on Dec. 12 following complications from a tonsillectomy, and the family - who insists the girl moves in response to her mother's voice - has been battling the hospital since.

On Monday, the girl's uncle, Omari Sealey, said the family found a licensed facility that would care for his 13-year-old niece, has contracted with an air ambulance to move her and has found a doctor who would stay by her side during the move.

The hospital, however, has "refused to agree to allow us to proceed," said Sealey said during a news conference outside the hospital Monday.

Sealey said the family asked Alameda County Superior Court judge Evelio Grillo to extend the temporary restraining order that was preventing the hospital from removing Jahi from a ventilator.

Grillo granted the restraining order two weeks ago after the hospital informed the family that it intended to remove Jahi from the ventilator. But after receiving an independent doctor's evaluation that Jahi is in fact brain dead, the judge ruled that the hospital is not obligated to keep Jahi on the ventilator. Still, he refused the hospital's request to lift the restraining order.

Sealey said the family also will file a new complaint in federal court challenging the hospital's right to deny her transfer, Sealey said.

The hospital has said that it was awaiting a call from a doctor from a facility willing to take Jahi but had received no such call.

Sealey said Jahi is moving in response to her mother's voice - actions he said were captured on video and presented to the hospital's attorneys.

[Scooter]

Family members understandably always want to hope for a miracle, which is why they can't be relied on to make decisions that are in the best interests of the patient. There was a case in the news here in the past few months about a man whose doctors want to remove life support because he is deemed to be irreversibly comatose, but his family have been fighting it all the way through the courts. It's sad, and it becomes despicable when interlopers attempt to use a family's grief and denial to advance their own agendas, as happened in the Schiavo case.

[Big RR]

Family members understandably always want to hope for a miracle, which is why they can't be relied on to make decisions that are in the best interests of the patient.

So who can? the medical establishment which has its own interests, pecuniary and otherwise? I don't trust them to act in the best interest of the patient. Certainly, those footing the bill should have a say, but again, that is their pecuniary interest they are seeking to protect, not that of the patient.

Personally, I would like to see a procedure for advance medical directives that would have to be followed; ones the family could not override. But that doesn't seem to be the law in the US. Failing that, I think we have to turn to the family, tempered by the courts when a clear injustice is manifested. Interesting you bring up the Schiavo case, there at least one member of her immediate family, her husband, was acting in her interest. The immediate family is not always the best choice, but it beats the others as far as I can see.

The best advice I can give anyone in the US is to give your medical proxy to someone you can trust; not foolproof; but as good as you can do.

[Scooter]

I should have said "family members...can't always be relied on to make decisions that are in the best interests of the patient" which is what I really meant. I think in most cases they are the best placed to make those decisions, but where that is in doubt, some arms length body that can look at the matter dispassionately, the courts if that is all there is, although in Ontario we have a Consent and Capacity Board which has a specific mandate to address such cases.

And I couldn't agree more about the importance of clear advance directives, having had to rely on them being used on several occasions on my own behalf.

[Joe Guy]

Jahi McMath: Attorney tells TV station child will be moved by deadline

By Rick Hurd
Contra Costa Times
Posted: 01/05/2014 12:40:58 PM PST | Updated: 100 min. ago

OAKLAND -- The attorney for the family of Jahi McMath told a Bay Area television station on Sunday morning that the brain-dead Oakland girl will be moved to a treatment facility before a Tuesday deadline "come hell or high water."

Christopher Dolan told KPIX 5 that the family has lined up a facility, transportation and a medical staff for the 13-year-old, who has been hooked to a ventilator at Children's Hospital Oakland since developing complications and suffering cardiac arrest after tonsil, nose and throat surgeries at the facility Dec. 9.

On Friday, the family and hospital agreed through a compromise forged in Alameda Superior Court that Jahi's mother may remove her from the hospital as long as Jahi's mother, Nailah Winkfield, takes responsibility for the child's care.

"We have what we need right now," Dolan told the station Sunday. "Everything is in place. I just need to get it moving."

When pressed further, Dolan said the he has put into place "the medical staff, the facilities. We have transportation. We just need to get it all in motion. ... Come hell or high water, that's what I'm gonna do."

His comments came as a deadline of 5 p.m. Tuesday looms to have Jahi transferred. A temporary restraining order granted by Judge Evelio Grillo forces the hospital to keep Jahi on a ventilator until then. After the deadline, the hospital may remove her from the ventilator if Jahi has not been moved.

Dolan did not immediately return multiple interview requests from this newspaper.

Hospital spokesman Sam Singer said the facility has been made aware of the plan and the pledge made by Dolan to have Jahi in another facility.

"We are taking him at his word," he said. "And we hope he keeps it."

Dolan did not say where the facility was located or from where the transportation would be coming, but court documents revealed that the Terri Schiavo Life & Hope Network has been working to place her in a New York facility and that Georgia-based Medway Air Ambulance would provide the transportation.

A call to the Life & Hope Network went unanswered Sunday morning. An email to MedWay Air Ambulance President Rick Moore was not answered immediately.

Court documents said the approximate cost to transport Jahi was just shy of $32,000; the Jahi McMath page at the gofundme.com website said Tuesday that $47,842 had been raised for Jahi by Sunday morning.

Alameda County Sheriff's Office spokesman J.D. Nelson said Friday that a death certificate has been issued for Jahi, but Dolan insisted in Sunday's interview that "she has not passed. Her kidney's function, she regulates her temperature, and her body moves now more than ever. This is a real human being, not a dead body."

The hospital, however, continued to dispute that notion, as well as Dolan's assertion that Children's Hospital Oakland has "withheld food for 26 days," the result of which has "kept Jahi (from receiving) nutrients that might help her brain to be at an optimum place" for recovery.

"Sadly ... Mr. Dolan is not being truthful to the public or his clients," Singer said. "When he says his 'medical team' wants to feed her body so her brain will have the optimum nutrients, he is either being purposely deceptive or ignorant. In either case, he is perpetuating a sad and tragic hoax on the public and the McMath family. Tragically, this young woman is dead and there is no food, no medical procedures and no amount of time that will bring back the deceased."

The agreement states that the hospital will allow a transfer team to enter the facility and move out Jahi, with her entire health responsibility, and the responsibility of the move falling to the mother. Jahi's tubes from the ventilator are to be removed and placed into the transport team's equipment, along with other devices, and her body will be moved from the hospital's gurney to a new one. Her medical records, medications and a status reports also will be handed over, and the hospital will sever ties with her, the agreement states.

"Now we have a clear path," Dolan told the station. "When you have a clear path, you begin running, especially when time is ticking down."

source

[oldr_n_wsr]

Got my wishes down in writing so if i am ever in this circumstance the plug is pulled. My wife also has her wishes in writing as does my dad. Her parents refuse to put their wishes in writing.

Hope I am never in that position.

[Big RR]

Oldr--I think we all hope that for ourselves, but sadly some of us, or our heirs, will be facing that. However, remember that, even with a written advance directive, hospitals (at least in NY and NJ) will usually defer to the family when a decision has to be made. While a written directive might ultimately carry the day in court, it may not stand up in the ER or ICU. So I advise to make all those who might be called upon to make the decision (your spouse and children primarily) to make know and understand your wishes, and also to appoint a medical proxy who you believe will carry them out (medical proxies are usually honored by hospitals).

Scooter--I like the consent and capacity board ideal, but would couldn't have them here because they'd be called "death panels".

[oldr_n_wsr]

My family knows my wishes and hopefully will carry them out. I just have to guard against premature plug pulling. Don't want my life insurance policy to enter into their decision making.

[Sue U]

The best advice I can give anyone in the US is to give your medical proxy to someone you can trust; not foolproof; but as good as you can do.

In her advance medical directive, my mom appointed me her health care proxy because, as she put it, "I know I can count on you to pull the plug; your brothers I'm not so sure about." (To which I replied, "Can I do it now?")

As for the story in the OP, it's awful and pathetic, and I don't think the attorney is doing the family any favors by getting them court orders to keep the body on "life" support. He should just settle the med mal case for them and help them move on.

[oldr_n_wsr]

Scooter--I like the consent and capacity board ideal, but would couldn't have them here because they'd be called "death panels".

Like it or not, there are always going to be "death panels". Here in this case the hospital is playing that role. Don't know if it's cost driven as I would guess if there were unlimited funds available, the hospital would just go on taking the families money and put in the tubes needed. I would like to think the hospital is making it's decision for the "right" reason, but I have my doubts.

And even if the family has coverage (I don't know if they do or don't), there are limits in most (all) plans that are going to be reached rather quickly. Then the insurance company gets to be the death panel.

[Sue U]

Like it or not, there are always going to be "death panels". Here in this case the hospital is playing that role. Don't know if it's cost driven as I would guess if there were unlimited funds available, the hospital would just go on taking the families money and put in the tubes needed. I would like to think the hospital is making it's decision for the "right" reason, but I have my doubts.

To the extent there is insurance coverage, most health policies I have seen do not cover "custodial care," which is what pumping air and fluids through an otherwise-dead body would be. That said, the hospital probably wouldn't care at all if the family transferred the body to another facility, as long as it could be assured that it was not violating any court order obtained by the family or any law governing disposition of patients/bodies. That's what the legal fight seems to be about.*

And even if the family has coverage (I don't know if they do or don't), there are limits in most (all) plans that are going to be reached rather quickly. Then the insurance company gets to be the death panel.

Lifetime caps on health coverage were eliminated by the Affordable Care Act.


_____________________

* Given the obvious med mal case involved, the hospital probably also wants to be sure the child is legally recognized as dead so there can be no damages claimed for ongoing pain, suffering, disability and loss of enjoyment of life's pleasures.

[Big RR]

Lifetime caps on health coverage were eliminated by the Affordable Care Act.

True, so the battle then changes to whether the care being provided is custodial or its treatment. As I recall, the key point in determining this is whether the treatment is making (or intended to make) the patient "better" or whether (s)he has a chance to recover.

and oldr--you are right, we basically do have the same things as death panels; decisions must be made as to the allocation of resources. But I recall all the wailing and gnashing of teeth when the use of review boards was discussed during the AIA debates.

Given the obvious med mal case involved, the hospital probably also wants to be sure the child is legally recognized as dead so there can be no damages claimed for ongoing pain, suffering, disability and loss of enjoyment of life's pleasures.

Good point sue; I really didn't understand why the hospital cared, but what they want to do is to cut off these damages and then just deal with a wrongful death action.

[Scooter]

The judge already deemed her to be dead while granting an injunction to maintain ventilation, etc.

What I don't get is any place that calls itself a medical facility being willing to take money to accept a dead body in order to ventilate it and provide it with nutrition. That strikes me as ghoulish profiteering on the grief of a family in denial.

[Big RR]

That may well be Scooter, but I don't see it as a lot worse than some post mortem practices, like freezing to be revived at a later date. Or sitting around at a 3 day wake staring at an embalmed (and never going to wake up in the conventional sense) dead body, followed by putting it and an exorbinantly expensive box in the ground, often with an expensively carved stone above.

Face it, like everything else, medicine is a business that generates money. I guess with the proceeds of the lawsuit the family will be able to afford it for a time. It's sad, but not surprising.

[Joe Guy]

Brain-dead Jahi McMath released to her family
Carolyn Jones and Henry K. Lee
Updated 11:25 pm, Sunday, January 5, 2014

(01-05) 23:23 PST OAKLAND -- Jahi McMath, the Oakland teenager who was declared brain-dead after a tonsillectomy, was quietly released to her family Sunday night, two days before the expiration of a court order preventing Children's Hospital Oakland from disconnecting her from a ventilator.

In a statement, Dr. David Durand, the hospital's chief of pediatrics, said the hospital had released Jahi's body to the Alameda County coroner, which in turn released the body to the custody of Jahi's mother, Nailah Winkfield, "per court order, for a destination unknown. Our hearts go out to the family as they grieve for this sad situation, and we wish them closure and peace."

Jahi was taken by private ambulance from the hospital about 8 p.m.

At a news conference Sunday night, Omari Sealey, the girl's uncle, and family attorney Christopher Dolan declined to say where the girl was being taken, citing privacy and security concerns.

"It's brought out the best in people and the worst in people," Dolan said. "We've had people make threats from around the country. It's sad that people act that way. So for Jahi's safety and those around her, we will not be saying where she went or where she is."

But Dolan, without elaborating, said she would have "her needs met" when she was "situated" at the new location in about 12 hours. Sealey, wearing a T-shirt reading "Team Jahi," said, "We're very grateful, very proud. We want to thank everyone that's supported us, everyone that stood in our corner, everyone that prayed for us, everyone that helped donate to make this possible. Without you guys, none of this would be possible."

Sealey said in a post on Twitter, "I told you we'd do it!!! I love you Jahi and I will come visit you soon baby girl." In another tweet, he wrote, "Jahi is FREE!!! Bye's Children's Hospital."

Earlier Sunday, Dolan, speaking on a local television station, said Jahi was alive and that he had a plan in place to move her.

"I have the medical staff, the facility, the transport. ... Wheels are in motion. We have a clear path," he said. "I have everything in place. We just need to get it all in motion. And come hell or high water, that's what I'm going to do."

Jahi, 13, had been at Children's Hospital Oakland since Dec. 9, when she went in for surgery on her tonsils, adenoids, uvula and palate tissue to treat sleep apnea.

After surgery she suffered cardiac arrest, her family said, and two doctors pronounced her brain-dead, meaning that her brain and brain stem have irreversibly ceased functioning.

A third doctor, a Stanford neurologist appointed by a court, confirmed the diagnosis 12 days later.

The Alameda County coroner's office issued a death certificate Friday, listing Dec. 12 as the girl's date of death.

Jahi's family and her attorney do not believe the girl is dead, citing her beating heart and occasional movements.

"She's not passed," Dolan said Sunday. "Her heart beats. Her kidneys function. She regulates her body temperature. ... She should not be treated as a dead person."

In documents filed in federal court on Friday, the director of Children's pediatric intensive care unit said that movements by a brain-dead person are not uncommon and are not an indication that Jahi is alive.

The movements are caused by spinal and muscular reflexes, said Dr. Heidi Flori.

"We anticipate that muscle activity will continue over time, given that Ms. McMath's body is being sustained" by a ventilator, nursing care, and an IV drip providing fluids, salt and carbohydrates, she said.

Nonetheless, the condition of Jahi's body is declining overall, she said.

"The body continues to deteriorate, with a gradual decrease in blood pressure," she said.

Jahi's family and the hospital had been battling over the fate of the girl since mid-December, when the family went to court to stop the hospital from disconnecting the ventilator.

Alameda County Superior Court Judge Evelio Grillo issued a restraining order, and then extended it, giving the family time to relocate the girl or accept her death.

source