Hawking his theory

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Scooter
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Re: Hawking his theory

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loCAtek wrote:If any atheists were wondering what it might take for me to choose their philosophy, it might if science could bring anyone back from the dead. Not critical condition near death, but stone cold dead-dead. That to me would be scientific proof that we are purely organic and do not possess souls, but that's one thing science hasn't captured is the spirit.
First, someone whose cardiac and respiratory function has completely ceased is clinically dead, not "near death", thus by that definition dead people have most certainly been revived. But I would agree, clinical death is not "stone cold dead-dead". That would be brain death, and once brain death occurs you are correct, there is no coming back.

Second, how does the inability to revive dead organisms imply the existence of a soul? We can't revive dead dogs and cats, do they have souls? I know that nothing will revive most of the plants that have died because I forgot to water them for 2 or 3 months; do my plants also have souls? What about the fungus growing in the leftovers I forgot were in the fridge, does it have a soul?
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thestoat
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Re: Hawking his theory

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Scooter wrote: once brain death occurs you are correct, there is no coming back
You've not seen some of the UK politicians ...
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Sean
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Re: Hawking his theory

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Shoes have souls...
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

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Sean
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Re: Hawking his theory

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loCAtek wrote: If any atheists were wondering what it might take for me to choose their philosophy, it might if science could bring anyone back from the dead. Not critical condition near death, but stone cold dead-dead. That to me would be scientific proof that we are purely organic and do not possess souls, but that's one thing science hasn't captured is the spirit.
Well Jesus did it apparently. So by my reckoning, if you believe that Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead you are now a proud atheist!
:nana
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

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loCAtek
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Re: Hawking his theory

Post by loCAtek »

Neither science nor man, was responsible for that. :nana

To bring back some one or thing from the dead (to myself and others that includes animals and plants, or anything that has a lifeforce) would demonstrate that existence is nothing more than being a biological machine and that all it takes to keep it running indefinitely is a good mechanic.

However, what is that lifeforce? It's not listed in quantum physics. Why can some matter animate itself, and some can't? What properties does that energy process? Man and science can duplicate some energies like light, heat and electricity, but he hasn't been able to create life. We've prolonged existing life, but creating something from nothing, no.
Last edited by loCAtek on Fri Sep 17, 2010 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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thestoat
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Re: Hawking his theory

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loCAtek wrote:but he hasn't been able to create life.
... yet. Getting closer with cloning and stem cell advances. But whenever these advances are pushed forward, religious lobbies usually oppose the advances. Just as they used to 500 years ago ... :cry:
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loCAtek
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Re: Hawking his theory

Post by loCAtek »

Closer to creating life from life, not life from death.

Ask an aging friend, or maybe you've witnessed someone die; their body is weakening but their spirit and soul remain undiminished; it may even become greater than their body, as in Hawking's case.

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Re: Hawking his theory

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loCAtek wrote:Closer to creating life from life, not life from death.
Yes, of course - currently. And even that is opposed. But technology is advancing at an ever increasing pace. Just think about what has happened in the last 100 years - then compare with advances in the last 10 years. Who knows where we will be 200 years hence - nobody can really imagine it (assuming we don't blow ourselves up by then, of course). Stuff that would have been considered the work of the devil a few hundred years ago is now commonplace. Science will continue forward, making new discoveries and making previously inconceivable things possible.
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Sean
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Re: Hawking his theory

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loCAtek wrote:Neither science nor man, was responsible for that. :nana

To bring back some one or thing from the dead (to myself and others that includes animals and plants, or anything that has a lifeforce) would demonstrate that existence is nothing more than being a biological machine and that all it takes to keep it running indefinitely is a good mechanic.

However, what is that lifeforce? It's not listed in quantum physics. Why can some matter animate itself, and some can't? What properties does that energy process? Man and science can duplicate some energies like light, heat and electricity, but he hasn't been able to create life. We've prolonged existing life, but creating something from nothing, no.
My bold.

So just from your own post Loca, we're on our way to doing what you ask.

As an aside, why are absolute proofs allowed to be demanded of science but not of religion. Hypocrisy of the highest order is my guess but if one of our spiritual/religious posters has a different opinion I'd be happy to take it on board...
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

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loCAtek
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Re: Hawking his theory

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thestoat wrote:
loCAtek wrote:Closer to creating life from life, not life from death.
Yes, of course - currently. And even that is opposed. But technology is advancing at an ever increasing pace.

Rebuttal, I recommend the book;
High Tech Myth #6: Products are Adopted Faster


Future Hype; The Myths of Technology Change, analyzes and debunks the High Tech Myths, nine fashionable but deceptive explanations for how technology works today. This is Myth #6.

----------------

Web time [is] seven times faster than normal time.
-- Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)


Another popular argument states that products are reaching us increasingly quickly. The US Department of Commerce outlined the argument this way: "Radio was in existence 38 years before 50 million people tuned in; TV took 13 years to reach that benchmark. Sixteen years after the first PC kit came out, 50 million people were using one. Once it was opened to the general public, the Internet crossed that line in four years."

This is hardly a fair comparison. Fifty million people were half the US population when radio was introduced, but only 20 percent when the Web started. The "once it was open to the general public" caveat for the Internet is also important. The Internet began in 1969. This means that 22 years of money and research from the government and universities nurtured it before it was opened to the public in 1991. And even at its starting point in 1969, the Internet wasn't built from scratch, like radio or the telegraph, but was built on the infrastructure and experience of the telephone industry.

This is rather like a bamboo plant that builds its root infrastructure for years and then bursts forth with a new shoot that grows a foot or more per day. It can be said that the bamboo grows to full height in a month, but that ignores the years of preparation that made it possible. Not only was the Internet nurtured for decades before the Web was introduced, but by the time it was opened to the public, the home PC industry was already well established. From the consumer standpoint, the Internet was born with the technological equivalent of a silver spoon in its mouth.

This quote could be more honestly written as follows.

The first radio broadcast was in 1906. About 23 years later, radio was mature enough for consumer use and receivers were in 2% of American households. Radio was in 50% of households in seven more years. Television, invented two decades later, had a similar progression: 24 years to reach 2% penetration and six more years to reach 50%.
If we take the year the first microprocessor was built (1971) as the start of the PC industry, it took little more than a decade to reach 2%. Its gestation was much faster than that of radio and TV because the PC did not need as much infrastructure. Nevertheless, it took almost two more decades for PCs to reach 50% penetration, three times longer than radio or TV.
The Internet was begun in 1969 as a government-funded research project. It was opened to commercial use the same year the Web was launched, in 1991. To reach 2% household penetration took 24 years, and it hit 50% after an additional seven years.

What conclusions can we draw? The evidence for accelerating technology change has evaporated, and we can see that successful products over the past century have had similar gestation times and growth rates and that modern inventions have not reached the market unusually quickly. However, it's interesting that the PC, one of the poster children of the our-times-are-unprecedented mindset, grew so much more slowly than radio and TV. Don't think that the PC carried a heavier burden because it was expensive. A 1981 PC was half the relative cost of a 1939 television and one tenth that of a 1908 Model T (these three dates are the first time their respective products were made available to the general public).

We'll take a final look at this question of how fast technology moved by looking at a very old example, cathedral construction in the medieval period. The difficulty of these projects is staggering. Imagine a cavernous, handmade stone building over 400 feet long with 12 stories of open space inside. The primitive cement of the time does little more than fill the gaps between the stones and will break if tension (pulling force) develops. Builders could validate new techniques and designs only through experiment. Most are illiterate, and they learned their skills through apprenticeship rather than books or schools. Architecture is not yet a science, and failed experiments can cost lives and years of work. There are no cranes, trucks, or power tools--there are not even any blueprints. This was the challenge facing the town of Chartres, France in 1194.

Despite these difficulties, the stunning Chartres cathedral, which still stands today, was almost completely built within 30 years. Salisbury cathedral in England, of similar dimensions and begun a few decades later, took less than 40 years. It is humbling to note that Washington's National Cathedral took more than twice this long, and New York City's St. John cathedral is still unfinished after over a century of work. The common perception of medieval cathedrals requiring centuries of work from generation after generation of stonemasons is quaint but not always true. When funds were available, as they were for Chartres and Salisbury, work proceeded quickly. When they are not, as in these modern examples, work halts. Only by picking and choosing examples can one argue for cathedrals--or technology in general--that technology changes ever faster.
Last edited by loCAtek on Sat Sep 18, 2010 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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loCAtek
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Re: Hawking his theory

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Sean wrote:
loCAtek wrote:Neither science nor man, was responsible for that. :nana
So just from your own post Loca, we're on our way to doing what you ask.
Negative, my bold;
loCAtek wrote: We've prolonged existing life, but creating something from nothing, no.
Prolonging existing life is not creating something from nothing; that's extending something from an existing something.

True scientific method is not absolute, granted. True spirituality is not either.
Claiming religion/spirituality is static is a myth.

"There are as many differnet types of Budhism as there are buddhists"

-The Buddha

rubato
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Re: Hawking his theory

Post by rubato »

Fuck me
fuck me
fuck me

Please stop trying to talk about science.

Thank you,
rubato

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loCAtek
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Re: Hawking his theory

Post by loCAtek »

No
no
no
(a thousand times, no)

Why?

DeNada,
Loca

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Sean
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Re: Hawking his theory

Post by Sean »

loCAtek wrote:
Sean wrote:
loCAtek wrote:Neither science nor man, was responsible for that. :nana
So just from your own post Loca, we're on our way to doing what you ask.
Negative, my bold;
loCAtek wrote: We've prolonged existing life, but creating something from nothing, no.
Prolonging existing life is not creating something from nothing; that's extending something from an existing something.

True scientific method is not absolute, granted. True spirituality is not either.
Claiming religion/spirituality is static is a myth.

"There are as many differnet types of Budhism as there are buddhists"

-The Buddha
That's some of the cheekiest selective quoting I've seen for a while Loca.

The actual posting I quoted from you was this:
Neither science nor man, was responsible for that.

To bring back some one or thing from the dead (to myself and others that includes animals and plants, or anything that has a lifeforce) would demonstrate that existence is nothing more than being a biological machine and that all it takes to keep it running indefinitely is a good mechanic.

However, what is that lifeforce? It's not listed in quantum physics. Why can some matter animate itself, and some can't? What properties does that energy process? Man and science can duplicate some energies like light, heat and electricity, but he hasn't been able to create life. We've prolonged existing life, but creating something from nothing, no.
My point being that the second bit in bold means that we're getting towards the first bit in bold. No mention of creating life from nothing at all!

But I like the selective quoting bit. If I may quote you for a moment Lo...
I
am
an
atheist
God
does
not
exist
religion/spirituality
is a myth
Hmmm... interesting turnaround there Lo. What changed your mind?
:nana
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

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loCAtek
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Re: Hawking his theory

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Well, my stipulations of 'life from death' and 'something from nothing' haven't happened yet, meaning no turnaround is necessary.
I merely stated that IF that was to happen I'd change my views. In light of no evidence of 'life from death', my mind remains unchanged.
How does prolonging life, imply regenerating from death? Those are two different things.

Rather than cutting and pasting my quotes out of context, have you any sources of scientists bringing any lifeforms back to life from a certifiable 'dead' state?

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Sean
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Re: Hawking his theory

Post by Sean »

Oh dear...

Try reading my bolded parts of your quote again. I wasn't referring to creating life. You referred to keeping it running indefinitely and I stated that you other reference to prolonging life means that we're already on the way to achieving that.

How is that hard?

Anyone?

Would somebody please tell me if I'm not making sense...

And it's a bit rich talking about me cutting and pasting your quotes out of context... Have you had a sense of humour bypass Loca?
Why is it that when Miley Cyrus gets naked and licks a hammer it's 'art' and 'edgy' but when I do it I'm 'drunk' and 'banned from the hardware store'?

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thestoat
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Re: Hawking his theory

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loCAtek wrote:Rebuttal, I recommend the book;

High Tech Myth #6: Products are Adopted Faster


Future Hype; The Myths of Technology Change, analyzes and debunks the High Tech Myths, nine fashionable but deceptive explanations for how technology works today. This is Myth #6.

----------------

Web time [is] seven times faster than normal time.
-- Cluetrain Manifesto (1999)

Another popular argument states that products are reaching us increasingly quickly
No, I haven't talked about how quickly products reach us. I am talking about how fast technology is advancing. Period.
If a man speaks in the forest and there are no women around to hear is he still wrong?

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thestoat
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Re: Hawking his theory

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loCAtek wrote:n light of no evidence of 'life from death', my mind remains unchanged.
Lo - why do you need evidence of "life from death" to realise atheism is correct, but are happy to believe in god with no evidence?
If a man speaks in the forest and there are no women around to hear is he still wrong?

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thestoat
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Re: Hawking his theory

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loCAtek wrote:Claiming religion/spirituality is static is a myth.
Religion stems mainly from one two thousand year old book - no more inputs since. Sounds pretty static to me. Unless you count re-interpretations of said book, but if you are allowed to continuously re-interpret the word of god then I guess anything goes ...
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loCAtek
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Re: Hawking his theory

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If you're allowed to re-interpret the work of science then I guess anything goes...

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