Who's Sorry Now?

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Joe Guy
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by Joe Guy »

Big RR wrote:Liar Joe? I don't think so, if he wanted to call you a liar, I would think he just would have done it, not tried to sugarcoat it.
I'm not so sure about that but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
Big RR wrote:What I read that as is suggesting that something else is behind the change other than Obamacare since it's unlikely that such a large increase would be due to that alone. Have you changed your carrier or had any other changes? If not, I would think it would make sense to contact the carrier and see why the premium went up as much as you say. Doubling a premium is a major increase.
There was absolutely no change that I made to my health care policy. It's the same one I've had for over 20 years with Blue Shield. I have not called them on it. A few people I know had the same thing happen and I thought it was just an effect of the new health care laws.

I am going to change my policy but I can't do that until October.

Big RR
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by Big RR »

Joe--I think calling them would make sense; at the very least you'd be no worse off than you are now. That's an unbelievable premium rise.

BTW, what prevents you from changing your policy until October?

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Joe Guy
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by Joe Guy »

Lord Jim wrote:
Joe, if you were a good person with a social conscience, instead of whining about your personal problems, you'd be rejoicing at the fact that some more of your fellow countrymen will now be able to get for free what you now pay twice as much for.

Like the old saying goes, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs, and it's just your bad luck to happen to be one of the eggs....

I'm really surprised to find that you're so selfish; obviously you would prefer that all the poor people just die.
Thank you, LJ. As often happens your even-handed and thoughtful response has smacked me back into reality. I have been very thoughtless and selfish. Because I feel so guilty for thinking about me so much, I'm going to call Blue Shield and ask them if I can voluntarily pay extra on my policy to help those who are not so fortunate.

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Joe Guy
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by Joe Guy »

Big RR wrote:Joe--I think calling them would make sense; at the very least you'd be no worse off than you are now. That's an unbelievable premium rise.

BTW, what prevents you from changing your policy until October?
In my situation I have 5 different plans that I can choose from, including two from Kaiser and three from Blue Shield. I currently have the Blue Shield plan with the highest premium. Unless I have a "life changing event" I can only change plans once per year in a period called "open enrollment". Although it truly is - I don't think a 100% premium increase would be seen as life changing.

But I will call to get an explanation for the increase.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by Lord Jim »

Health Care Law May Result in 2 Million Fewer Full-Time Workers

By ANNIE LOWREY and JONATHAN WEISMANFEB. 4, 2014

WASHINGTON — A Congressional Budget Office analysis released Tuesday predicted that the Affordable Care Act would shrink the work force by the equivalent of more than two million full-time positions and recharged the political debate over the health care law, providing Republican opponents fresh lines of attack and putting Democrats on the defensive.

The nonpartisan budget office’s analysis, part of a regular update to its budget projections, was far more complicated than the Republican attack lines it generated. Congressional Republican leaders called the findings “devastating,” “terrible” and proof that the health care law was a job killer.

The report did say that the law would reduce hours worked and full-time employment, but not because of a crippling impact on private-sector job creation. With the expansion of insurance coverage, the budget office predicted, more people will choose not to work, and others will choose to work fewer hours than they might have otherwise to obtain employer-provided insurance. The cumulative reduction of hours is large: the equivalent of 2.5 million fewer full-time positions by 2024, the budget office said.

The report “rightfully says that people shouldn’t have job lock,” said Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the Democratic leader. “We live in a country where we should be free agents. People can do what they want.”

“Republicans talk about losing millions of jobs. That simply isn’t true,” Mr. Reid said.

But Republicans, even those versed in the nuances of the budget reports, did not hold back. Senator Roy Blunt of Missouri, a member of the Republican leadership, acknowledged the administration’s position — that the coming decline in the work force could be the result of workers’ choosing different career paths. But, he noted, the budget office had previously projected a far smaller impact.

“No matter how you calculate this number or how the administration tries to explain it away, it’s about two and a half times as high as the number was when they looked at it the first time,” Mr. Blunt said. “They can say anything they want, but this number is a lot worse than anybody thought.”

Republicans seized on the report as evidence of the health care law’s adverse effect on the economy.

“For years, Republicans have said that the president’s health care law creates uncertainty for small businesses, hurts take-home pay and makes it harder to invest in new workers,” Speaker John A. Boehner said. “The middle class is getting squeezed in this economy, and this C.B.O. report confirms that Obamacare is making it worse.”

Democrats clearly understood the political damage the report could have. Senator Jeanne Shaheen, a Democrat facing a tough political environment for her re-election bid in New Hampshire, told reporters, “You guys are going to politicize it no matter what happens.”

Senator Joe Manchin III, Democrat of West Virginia, who has embraced a number of bills to tweak the health care law, called disappointing enrollment figures and work-force declines the law’s “Waterloo.”

“Pretty soon the numbers don’t line up and the math doesn’t equal out, and you have to make some adjustments,” he said.
“You do it every day in your life. The government’s got to do it.”

The budget office analysis found that the law, in effect, nudges workers to work less. The insurance expansion reduces the need for people to take a full-time job just to get coverage. The premium subsidies effectively bolster household income. Higher taxes for richer households also reduce the incentive to work.

But it will also have an effect on businesses, the report said, including by encouraging them to reduce employee hours to avoid the “employer mandate.” The overall demand for labor would not change, in other words, but businesses might arrange their workers’ schedules differently to avoid having to provide them with health care.

The report stressed that there seemed to be no effect on part-time employment yet; the law’s penalties on businesses that fail to provide insurance for workers do not hit until 2015.


“Claims that the Affordable Care Act hurts jobs are simply belied by the facts,” said the White House press secretary, Jay Carney. “The report itself says that there is ‘no compelling evidence that part-time employment has increased as a result of the A.C.A.'”[because the employer mandate hasn't cranked in yet, Bozo :roll:... yet even more disingenuous dissembling]

The budget office also estimated that about a million fewer Americans than expected will receive health insurance coverage in 2014 through the marketplaces established by the Affordable Care Act, primarily because of the troubled rollout of the exchanges. It also revised its estimates of the number of people receiving coverage through Medicaid and Children’s Health Insurance Plan coverage, lowering it by about one million.

The budget office now estimates that six million Americans will enroll through the exchanges in their first year, rather than seven million, and that expanded Medicaid and other public programs will enroll eight million Americans, rather than nine million.

But the long-term effect of the problems with the rollout remains unclear, the budget office said, declining to alter its coverage projections for later years.

“Over time, more people are expected to respond to the new coverage options, so enrollment is projected to increase sharply in 2015 and 2016,” the budget office said in its report. It estimates that as of 2017, about 25 million Americans will obtain coverage on the exchanges.

The news in the report is not all bad for Democrats. The office also sees the budget deficit falling to $514 billion in the 2014 fiscal year, or about 3 percent of economic output, from $1.4 trillion in 2009.[thanks primarily to the sequester, which the Dems claim to oppose] Many economists consider deficits of that size to be sustainable in the long term.

The budget office sees the deficit continuing to drop in the 2015 fiscal year, to $478 billion, or about 2.6 percent of economic output. From there, though, it anticipates that the deficit will rise again as government spending picks up, absent congressional action.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/05/us/po ... lment.html
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Long Run
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by Long Run »

Rates vary dramatically from market to market based on the new law. Costs in general have gone up to comply with the law. However, the cost for existing policies to comply with the law, on average, is not double. Whether the law works out eventually or not, it is definitely causing a fair amount of dislocation and leaving people scrambling or paying up, to go along with the winners who pay less.

My guess regarding Joe's situation is that he is in a policy that has a good benefit structure, and that it lost a lot of healthy people who have gone on to an Exchange plan or otherwise changed plans when they saw the rate differential. This left Joe's product with a much higher cost/riskier population who either want to stay with their existing policy or want to keep the policy because it pays most of their anticipated costs. Blue Shield adjusted premiums to reflect this change in the insured population. Just a guess; I'll be interested to see what company line they give Joe.

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Crackpot
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by Crackpot »

Joe I bet what happened is a lot of people from the pool you're insured under in dropped the type coverage you have (either through layoffs policy changes or both) which makes it costlier for the remaining people. Many insurances have a minimum enrollee count or the premiums go through the roof (which sounds to be the situation you're in)
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

rubato
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by rubato »

Health care cost increases have slowed dramatically in recent years. So if Obamacare is doing anything it is either slowing the increase or at minimum doing nothing to raise it. During the "Bush Years" it went up at twice the rate.

http://www.forbes.com/fdc/welcome_mjx.shtml
"... Does Obamacare Deserve Credit For Slowing The Growth In Health Care Spending?


The annual report of from the actuaries over at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) is out for 2012 and, for the fourth year running, the news is surprisingly good.

Total healthcare spending in 2012 came in at $2.79 trillion—up just 3.7 percent over the previous year and continuing a four-year trend of significantly reducing the amount of growth in annual healthcare expenditures.

By way of comparison, before the recent recession, we were averaging annual increases in health care spending of over 7 percent during the calendar years 2000-2008.
Surprise-Obamacare Now Projected To Cost Hundreds Of Billions Less Than Expected
Are Federal And State Operated Obamacare Exchanges Afraid Of Private Sector Competition?
Clinton Right On Keeping Both Obamacare Promise And Obamacare-Will Opponents Let That Happen?

The current numbers represent the slowest rate of growth since the government began tracking the data in 1960. ..." .
see link.

yrs,
rubato

rubato
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by rubato »

Big RR wrote:Liar Joe? I don't think so, if he wanted to call you a liar, I would think he just would have done it, not tried to sugarcoat it.

... " .

Why would I call him a liar? He has made mo meaningful factual statements at all. Saying something "doubled" without saying from what and to what says nothing at all. Going from $10 to $20 mo. is doubling. Going from $100/mo to $200/mo is doubling too. So is gong from $1,000 to $2,000. And what about the cost effects of removing lifetime limits? Maybe his employer is starting to ding people for smoking or refusing to take 'health assessments'. Or they are offsetting a higher monthly with an employer-provided check for his health savings account?


The 'top line' fact is that HC cost increases have slowed, a lot and getting insurance for more people is a very good thing.


yrs,
rubato
Last edited by rubato on Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Long Run
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by Long Run »

The actual reasons for the slowdown in the rate of medical increases have nothing to do with the ACA. First, most of the ACA has not been implemented yet, so it can't be responsible for any savings. Second, most of the slowdown in medical care inflation was due to the crummy economy -- good old less demand. Third, the growth of health savings accounts and other vehicles which take the middle man insurance company out of most medical care transactions resulted in real administrative savings. None of these has anything to do with the ACA, the impact of which we will just have to wait and see when it is implemented and has some time to make its full impact known.

rubato
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by rubato »

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion- ... z2sPYAWQKA
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/bette-spokane
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2014/j ... rs-speech/

The "Bette in Spokane" story has been reported a lot of places already. But so far every single anecdotal story the GOP have come up with falls apart the minute anyone looks into it. That fact alone suggests that for nearly everyone the exchanges are a wash or replace useless HI with something more functional. And this was the official -written in advance- GOP response, and it was a total lie!


yrs,
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Joe Guy
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by Joe Guy »

rubato wrote:
Big RR wrote:Liar Joe? I don't think so, if he wanted to call you a liar, I would think he just would have done it, not tried to sugarcoat it.

... " .

Why would I call him a liar? He has made mo meaningful factual statements at all.
My rate went from $325.00 to $574.00. It was actually only a 76% increase. Sorry for being misleading. I thought I was paying about $275.00 per month in 2013 but I think that was probably what I paid in 2012.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by Lord Jim »

Obamacare’s scorekeepers deliver a game-changer

By Dana Milbank, Published: February 4

For years, the White House has trotted out the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office to show that Obamacare would cut health-care costs and reduce deficits:

“CBO Confirms Families Will Save Money Under Health Reform.”

Live by the sword, die by the sword, the Bible tells us. In Washington, it’s slightly different: Live by the CBO, die by the CBO.

The congressional number-crunchers, perhaps the capital’s closest thing to a neutral referee, came out with a new report Tuesday, and it wasn’t pretty for Obamacare. The CBO predicted the law would have a “substantially larger” impact on the labor market than it had previously expected: The law would reduce the workforce in 2021 by the equivalent of 2.3 million full-time workers, well more than the 800,000 originally anticipated. This will inevitably be a drag on economic growth, as more people decide government handouts are more attractive than working more and paying higher taxes.

This is grim news for the White House and for Democrats on the ballot in November. This independent arbiter, long embraced by the White House, has validated a core complaint of the Affordable Care Act’s (ACA) critics: that it will discourage work and become an ungainly entitlement. Disputing Republicans’ charges is much easier than refuting the federal government’s official scorekeepers.

White House officials rushed to dispute the referee’s call — arguing, somewhat contradictorily, that the finding was both flawed and really good news if interpreted properly.

Press secretary Jay Carney quickly issued a statement saying that the CBO report was, by its own admission, “incomplete” and “does not take into account” some favorable effects of the law.

Carney postponed his daily press briefing, then arrived with Jason Furman, head of the Council of Economic Advisers, who argued that the Affordable Care Act couldn’t possibly be a job killer because 8.1 million jobs had been created since it became law. This is true — but irrelevant to the CBO finding.

Meanwhile, Gene Sperling, Obama’s top economic-policy adviser, walked to the White House lawn and told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer that he rejected the finding. “When you have two parents and they’re both working full time to provide health care and they don’t feel they’re there to do homework with their kids and this allows one of [them] to work a little less because they have health care, that’s not costing jobs,” Sperling argued.

Sounds nice, except the CBO said its more pessimistic workforce view had been shaped by recent studies, “in particular” those looking at “expansions or contractions in Medicaid eligibility for childless adults.” In general, the CBO explained, phasing out subsidies to buy health insurance when income rises “effectively raises people’s marginal tax rates . . . thus discouraging work.”

There was some good news about Obamacare (and about shrinking deficits) in the report: Premiums are lower than expected, and there “is no compelling evidence” that employers are shifting to part-time jobs in response to the law. The law will give health insurance to an additional 13 million people this year and 25 million in 2016 and beyond.

But it was immediately clear that the government’s green eyeshades had bestowed a big gift on the law’s Republican critics.

Fox News put up a breaking-news banner: “Bombshell CBO report predicts 2.3 million jobs will be lost under Obamacare.” Rep. Darrell Issa (Calif.), one of the law’s fiercest foes, did a celebratory interview with Fox. “There are other surprises yet to come,” he promised. Republicans went to the Senate floor to tout the findings. For a brief time, the CBO Web site went down; online traffic surges aren’t usually a problem for the agency.

In the White House briefing room, Furman navigated a river of skeptical questions. “Doesn’t just the sheer idea of losing 2.5 million jobs over 10 years have a negative economic impact? . . . You’re saying it may be a good thing if there are 2 million fewer workers? . . . How do you answer Republicans who now have this evidence that they can wave to say, ‘Aha, the ACA is bad for the economy’?”

Furman attempted to dispute the report (“I haven’t accepted the number”) without disparaging the authors (“We cite CBO all the time”). Delicately, he said the report “is subject to misinterpretation, doesn’t take into account every factor, and there’s uncertainty and debate around it.”

But there’s only so much White House officials could do. Obamacare has been undermined by the very entity they had used to validate it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html
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rubato
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by rubato »

Clever of Fox to quote a report they have not read for people who won't, or can't, themselves.

The CBO reasoning is not that 2.5 million jobs will be lost but that a total number of hours worked will be reduced by an amount equivalent to that by <cutting hours of part-time workers>. And it does not say that there will be a NET loss of that many job-equivalents only that within the total melange of jobs lost and created over the next 10 years.

Their reasoning is a little soft and it remains to be confirmed but the whole prediction is rather a nothing; if you actually read it rather than mis-interpreting the headlines.

"Cry Cry Cry, that's all that you can do."

yrs,
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Lord Jim
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by Lord Jim »

Clever of Fox to quote a report they have not read
Except of course that this is an analysis written by Dana Milbank, a liberal columnist for the Washington Post, as both the attribution at the beginning of the piece and the link at the bottom clearly indicate...

You seem to have trouble reading and understanding.
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rubato
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by rubato »

Text from the report:
Although CBO projects that total employment (and compensation) will increase over the coming decade, that increase will be smaller than it would have been in the absence of the aCA. The decline in full-time-equivalent employment stemming from the ACA will consist of some people not being employed at all and other people working fewer hours; however, CBO has not tried to quantify those two components of the overall effect. The estimated reduction stems almost entirely from a net decline in the amount of labor that workers choose to supply, rather than from a net drop in business’ demand for labor, so it will appear almost entirely as a reduction in labor force participation and in hours worked relative to what have occurred otherwise rather than as an increase in unemployment (that is, more workers seeking, but not finding jobs) or underemployment (such as part-time workers who would prefer to work more hours per week).
For those who prefer facts to bullshit.


yrs,
rubato

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Lord Jim
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by Lord Jim »

The estimated reduction stems almost entirely from a net decline in the amount of labor that workers choose to supply, rather than from a net drop in business’ demand for labor,
Yes, making this analysis from the New York Times article I posted:
The budget office analysis found that the law, in effect, nudges workers to work less. The insurance expansion reduces the need for people to take a full-time job just to get coverage. The premium subsidies effectively bolster household income. Higher taxes for richer households also reduce the incentive to work.

But it will also have an effect on businesses, the report said, including by encouraging them to reduce employee hours to avoid the “employer mandate.” The overall demand for labor would not change, in other words, but businesses might arrange their workers’ schedules differently to avoid having to provide them with health care.
Absolutely 100% correct.

At least for those who prefer facts to bullshit.
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Jarlaxle
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by Jarlaxle »

That leaves out Rube, of course...
Treat Gaza like Carthage.

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Crackpot
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by Crackpot »

It all depends where those nudges are coming from/going... I heard two major scenarios outlined one sounds bad (if not a little far fetched) and one sounds like an outright positive boost for the economy.
The first being people who don't work more in order to keep thier current subsidy....

There are always people that wil do this (regardless of political stripe) and the amount is usually negligible. However if it is not I don't see it as being a major problem to restructure the scale on the subsidies in order to reduce the problem. My experience is unless the "reward" is huge few will hold themselves back in order to simply keep a subsidy. I personally could get thousands of dollars from the govt for simply not working. But I like most people see the benefit of the extra money over the the tax credits etc lost by not.

The second is aging people leaving the workforce simply because they can now afford private healthcare. This is actually an outright boon to the economy since it opens up good jobs to younger employees and reduces unemployment.

I just don't see this as being anywhere near as damaging as was initially reported (you know by that liberal media?)
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

Big RR
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Re: Who's Sorry Now?

Post by Big RR »

Joe Guy wrote:
rubato wrote:
Big RR wrote:Liar Joe? I don't think so, if he wanted to call you a liar, I would think he just would have done it, not tried to sugarcoat it.

... " .

Why would I call him a liar? He has made mo meaningful factual statements at all.
My rate went from $325.00 to $574.00. It was actually only a 76% increase. Sorry for being misleading. I thought I was paying about $275.00 per month in 2013 but I think that was probably what I paid in 2012.

Joe--these numbers seem low; is this a policy you own yourself, or one provided through your employer (or union or whatever) which requires you to pay a part of the premium?

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