I was up early and watched some of this...

[Lord Jim]

It was a beautiful and impressive service...(also some fantastic music)

Francis Presides Over Historic Double Canonization

Pope Francis declared his two predecessors John XXIII and John Paul II saints Sunday. Emeritus Pope Benedict XVI also attended the historic ceremony



(VATICAN CITY) — Pope Francis declared his two predecessors John XXIII and John Paul II saints before some 800,000 people on Sunday, an unprecedented ceremony made even more historic by the presence in St. Peter’s Square of emeritus Pope Benedict XVI.

Never before has a reigning and retired pope celebrated Mass together in public, much less at an event honoring two of their most famous predecessors.

Benedict’s presence was a reflection of the balancing act that Francis envisioned when he decided to canonize John and John Paul together, showing the unity of the Catholic Church by honoring popes beloved to conservatives and progressives alike.

Francis made that point clear in his homily, praising both men for their work associated with the Second Vatican Council, the groundbreaking meetings that brought the 2,000-year-old institution into modern times. John convened the council while John Paul helped ensure its more conservative implementation and interpretation.

“John XXIII and John Paul II cooperated with the Holy Spirit in renewing and updating the church in keeping with her pristine features, those features which the saints have given her throughout the centuries,” Francis said.

He praised John for having allowed himself to be led by God to call the council, and he hailed John Paul’s focus on the family — an issue Francis has taken up himself.

“They were priests, bishops and popes of the 20th century,” Francis said. “They lived through the tragic events of that century, but they were not overwhelmed by them.”

It was Benedict who put John Paul on the fast-track for possible sainthood just weeks after he died in 2005, responding to the chants of “Santo Subito!” or “Sainthood Now!” that erupted during his funeral Mass. His canonization is now the fastest in modern times.

Francis then tweaked the Vatican’s own saint-making rules, deciding that John could be made a saint without the necessary second miracle usually required for canonization.

Francis took a deep breath and paused for a moment before reciting the saint-making formula in Latin at the start of the ceremony, as if moved by the history he was about to make in canonizing two popes at once.

He said that after deliberating, consulting and praying for divine assistance “we declare and define that Blessed John XXIII and John Paul II be saints and we enroll them among the saints, decreeing that they are to be venerated as such by the whole church.”

Applause broke out from a crowd that stretched from St. Peter’s to the Tiber River and beyond.

“This is such a historic moment,” marveled the Rev. Victor Perez, who brought a group from the John Paul High School in Houston, Texas and waited for nearly 12 hours to get near St. Peter’s. “John Paul was so impactful on the church. He completed the work of Vatican II. Today honors the last 50 years of what God has done in the church.”

In John Paul’s native Poland, bells tolled as soon as Francis pronounced the two men saints.

“He changed Poland and he changed us with his teaching and with his visits here,” an emotional Maria Jurek said as she watched the proceedings on giant TV screens at a sanctuary dedicated to John Paul in Krakow.

Yet the atmosphere in St. Peter’s seemed somber and subdued — perhaps due to the chilly gray skies and cumulative lack of sleep — unlike the rollicking party atmosphere of John Paul’s May 2011 beatification when bands of young people sang and danced in the hours before and after the Mass.

The Vatican estimated that 800,000 people watched the Mass in Rome, with about 500,000 in the square and nearby streets and the rest watching on TV screens that had been set up in piazzas around downtown.

By the time the ceremony began, Via della Conciliazione, the main boulevard leading from the square, nearby streets and the bridges across the Tiber were packed.

Polish pilgrims carrying the red and white flags of John Paul’s beloved homeland had been among the first to push into the square well before sunrise, as the human chains of neon-vested civil protection workers trying to maintain order finally gave up and let them in.

“Four popes in one ceremony is a fantastic thing to see and to be at, because it is history being written in our sight,” marveled one of the visiting Poles, Dawid Halfar.

Benedict had promised to remain “hidden from the world” after resigning last year, but Francis has coaxed him out of retirement and urged him to take part in the public life of the church.

During the Mass, Benedict sat off to the side of the altar with other cardinals, though he was clearly in a place of honor. He received the Italian president and a steady stream of cardinals, as well as Francis himself at the beginning and end of the service. Benedict had arrived in the square on his own to cheers and applause, wearing white vestments and white bishops’ miter.

In a dress rehearsal of sorts, Benedict attended the February ceremony in which Francis installed 19 new cardinals. But celebrating Mass together with Francis was something else entirely, a first for the institution and a reflection of Francis’ desire to show the continuity in the papacy, despite different personalities, priorities and politics.

Pope John XIII, who reigned from 1958-1963, is a hero to liberal Catholics for having convened Vatican II, which allowing Mass to be celebrated in local languages rather than Latin and encouraged greater dialogue with people of other faiths, particularly Jews.

During his quarter-century papacy from 1978-2005, John Paul II helped topple communism through his support of Poland’s Solidarity movement. His globe-trotting papacy and launch of the wildly popular World Youth Days invigorated a new generation of Catholics, while his defense of core church teaching heartened conservatives after the turbulent 1960s.

“John Paul was our pope,” said Therese Andjoua, a 49-year-old nurse who traveled from Libreville, Gabon, with some 300 other pilgrims to attend. She sported a traditional African dress bearing the images of the two new saints.

“In 1982 he came to Gabon and when he arrived he kissed the ground and told us to ‘Get up, go forward and be not afraid,’” she recalled as she rested against a pallet of water bottles. “When we heard he was going to be canonized, we got up.”

Kings, queens, presidents and prime ministers from more than 90 countries attended. Some 20 Jewish leaders from the U.S., Israel, Italy, Francis’ native Argentina and Poland were also taking part, in a clear sign of their appreciation for the great strides made in Catholic-Jewish relations under John, John Paul — and their successors celebrating their sainthood.

http://time.com/78320/francis-presides- ... onization/

[Gob]

Francis then tweaked the Vatican’s own saint-making rules, deciding that John could be made a saint without the necessary second miracle usually required for canonization.

What "miracle" did he actually manage to pull off?

[Lord Jim]

Traditionally, the canonization process doesn't begin until five years after the candidate's death.

But John Paul II changed the lives of so many people around the world that the process began just weeks after his passing.

The first miracle credited to the late pontiff involved a French nun.

It was Sister Marie Simon-Pierre’s prayer to John Paul and her unexplained and immediate recovery thereafter from Parkinson’s disease that provided the miracle needed for his beatification.

Pope John Paul II himself had suffered from the same degenerative disease.

Pope Emeritus Benedict declared the act an official miracle in 2011.

The second miracle attributed to the pontiff was reported by a Costa Rican woman who says she was partially paralyzed because of a brain aneurism.

Floribeth Mora Diaz was told she had just days to live

She prayed to John Paul II from a small shrine dedicated to him.

Floribeth Mora Diaz/ Pope John Paul II’s second Miracle: "That's when I heard the voice in my bedroom saying get up. That was a surprise. And I looked around the room.. Said, my god I am alone. And I heard something that said get up. And it repeated to me.. Get up, do not be afraid."

Doctors found no trace of an aneurysm in her brain and had no explanation for her recovery.

Diaz: "From that day to today, I am standing because Pope John Paul II that day took away my fears, took away the agony, and gave me peace."

Pope John XXIII canonization also involves a break with tradition.

Pope Francis waived the second miracle requirement.

His one miracle was the healing of an Italian nun.

In 1966, Sister Catherine Capitani was not expected to live after an operation to remove a tumor in her stomach.

But Capitani made a sudden recovery after other nuns placed an image of John XXIII on her stomach.

Her caretaker recalls how Capitani reacted.

Sister Adele Labianca/ Caretaker of Sister Catherine Capitani: "You have ripped this miracle out of my heart' the pope said to Sister Catherine. After that Sister Catherine stood up and said 'I'm healed, I'm healed'. Nobody could believe what they were seeing."

The Vatican deemed it to be a miracle.

Leading to Pope John XXIII beatification in September 2000.

ETA:

I will now demonstrate my miraculous powers of clairvoyance by predicting that Strop will respond to the above information with sarcasm, derision, and ridicule....

[Guinevere]

Oh JP2 changed the lives of many people all right -- most of them young men who were abused by one of the people they should have been able to trust. Shame, not praise, should be heaped on the he who looked the other way instead of making it right. And yeah, Bernie Law is still running around Rome, being treated like a prince. It makes me vomit.

http://ncronline.org/news/accountabilit ... isis-didnt

[Gob]

You were right Jim!

It was Sister Marie Simon-Pierre’s prayer to John Paul and her unexplained and immediate recovery thereafter from Parkinson’s disease that provided the miracle needed for his beatification.

It was the miracle that set Pope John Paul II on the road to sainthood and provided faithful followers with proof of his holy powers. But hopes that the former pope's canonisation would be fast-tracked by Sister Marie Simon-Pierre's recovery from Parkinson's disease have been set back by reports that the French nun has fallen ill again.

Worked once, never again? Shame eh?


Bloody superstitious will believe any old crap.

[Econoline]

Oh JP2 changed the lives of many people all right -- most of them young men who were abused by one of the people they should have been able to trust. Shame, not praise, should be heaped on the he who looked the other way instead of making it right. And yeah, Bernie Law is still running around Rome, being treated like a prince. It makes me vomit.

http://ncronline.org/news/accountabilit ... isis-didnt

source (of course)

[Joe Guy]

I will now demonstrate my miraculous powers of clairvoyance by predicting that Strop will respond to the above information with sarcasm, derision, and ridicule...

You were right Jim!

That's more than mere clairvoyance, Jim. That's a miracle!

One more of those and you might be in the running for designated Saint!!

[MajGenl.Meade]

More crap. Assuming the truth of Christianity*, only God performs miracles. (And no nonsense about the apostles either - miracles, if any, are not "performed" by humans but by the power of the Spirit i.e. God).

All believers are saints and praying TO any saint is both blasphemous and useless (just as is praying to Mary). Saints don't cure people of anything. Saints don't have miraculous powers.



*that is, you don't have to agree that it's true but should be able to acknowledge that this is what it teaches (rightly or wrongly).

[Big RR]

Meade--while I tend to agree with you, I do think you are looking at the RC doctrines a bit simplistically. Firstly, the bible, both OT "and NT, are full of examples where "miracles" are performed through the intervention of persons. From OT patriarchs and prophets, to the NT apostles and other believers, the bible has many stories where persons have done the miraculous--healings, casting out demons, parting the red sea, etc. Yes, it is ultimately due to the power of god, but that power is always reported as channeled through individuals. god just didn't part the red sea, Moses hit his staff upon it and it parted; the healings don't happen spontaneously, but when the believer lays his/her hands on the ill person, etc. And the RC church also relies on the biblical commission jesus gave the disciples (and their "descendants", the clergy) to go forth and preach, heal, cast out demons, even forgive or retain sin (with those decisions being the same in heaven)--even to the point of holding the "keys to the kingdom". given this, I think it difficult to ignore the role the individual plays in this "truth". Would the red sea have been parted without moses being there? Maybe, maybe not; but it's difficult to ignore his role in channeling to power of god to perform that "miracle" (indeed, if the people didn't think moses had a hand in it, would they have even ventured into the parted sea? They needed something more personal that they could choose to follow); and I think this is at the root of the RC church's beliefs in saints and miracles.

Now I have no problem believing that much of this is based on misunderstanding and/or the "puffery" of those controlling the early church, but then I concede that some things in the bible are not literally true. And as for "miracles", I think we are now in a time when miracles are difficult to accept. As our scientific understanding progresses, what would have been recognized as "miracles", from spontaneous remissions to rising from the brink of death, are seen to be natural processes. Much as we have gotten to the point where we cannot find an unknown soldier from Vietnam because of out identification techniques, I think it is nearly impossible to show that a "miracle" occurred. Not that an omnipotent god couldn't perform acts which even now would be seen as miracles, but that god often/always chooses not to make such changes (for whatever reasons), just as god acted through his "chosen" in the past.

[Econoline]

More crap. Assuming the truth of Christianity*, only God performs miracles. (And no nonsense about the apostles either - miracles, if any, are not "performed" by humans but by the power of the Spirit i.e. God).

All believers are saints and praying TO any saint is both blasphemous and useless (just as is praying to Mary). Saints don't cure people of anything. Saints don't have miraculous powers.

Since it happens I was raised as a Roman Catholic, I have to tell you, Meade, that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the beliefs of Roman Catholics. The belief is not that Mary (or whoever) can perform a miracle but rather that she (or he, or they) can intervene on one's behalf with God, and ask him to perform said miracle. (Supposedly.) ("HeyHail Mary...I know your son--not to mention his father--has WAY more important things to think about than my little incurable disease, but...since you're already up there close to him and see more of him than the rest of us down here, if you have a chance and it's not too much trouble, could you put in a word for me?") To use a Chicago analogy: you go to the precinct captain or the alderman rather than the mayor if you need something from the city.

The reason miracles are considered proof of sainthood is that they (supposedly--again) show that the prospective saint was/is holy enough to have actually made into heaven rather than the other place and is now closer to God than us mere mortals. (The statues are just to focus one's attention on who one might be trying to talk to, and also for decoration; God knows those churches would have been pretty drab without some decoration.)

[Big RR]

Thanks econoline; it's good to hear from someone who was raised with the doctrine as to how it is interpreted and applied.

[Lord Jim]

That reflects my understanding as well.

[Gob]

Thanks econoline; it's good to hear from someone who was raised with the doctrine as to how it is interpreted and applied. Though it still sounds total lunacy to a sane person.

My thoughts exactly

[Lord Jim]

Thanks econoline; it's good to hear from someone who was raised with the doctrine as to how it is interpreted and applied. Though it still sounds total lunacy to a sane person.

My thoughts exactly

That would stand to reason, since they are your thoughts exactly, rather than what was actually said...

[Big RR]

Yep; is this some sort of transference or projecting your thoughts onto me?

[Gob]

LOL! You noticed?

[Big RR]

You have to get up pretty early in the morning to pull one over on me.

[dgs49]

FWIW I think that JPII cheapened the concept of sainthood and in the process did a great disservice to the Church.

We were taught that the named (canonized) saints were "in heaven" (whatever that means). The recognized saints were but a few of the total people "in heaven," but "we" knew, from reliable evidence - miracles and whatnot) that these exemplary people were definitely "there."

JPII seemed to back off that stance a little bit. He taught that in canonizing someone it was not a declaration that these people were "in heaven," but rather just an acknowledgement that they had led lives to be admired and emulated (e.g., Mother Teresa).

Of course, it's all mumbo jumbo preposterous bullshit, but the distinction, to me, is significant.

BTW there is a church in the polish neighborhood of Pittsburgh that has a "first class relic" of JPII, to wit, a piece of the bloody cassock he was wearing when he got shot. Wowzer. Talk about your Ebay blockbuster.

[Big RR]

He taught that in canonizing someone it was not a declaration that these people were "in heaven," but rather just an acknowledgement that they had led lives to be admired and emulated

I thought that's what beatification was; is there now no difference between beatification and canonization?

[Scooter]

As usual, when Dave doesn't have the fucking first clue what he is talking about, he pulls it right out of his ass.