And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

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Scooter
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Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Post by Scooter »

rubato wrote:Hey scooter! Watch his video and tell me if you think he's homosexual or not.
I can see why you would get that, but not every soft spoken, articulate, well groomed guy is gay. While his affect might give off that vibe, what he actually says doesn't line up with that at all.

Although, if he is giving off a gay vibe to girls he meets, it might explain why he has struck out so much with them.
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Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Post by Gob »

This guy had THREE legally owned semi-automatic weapons, and was on psychiatric medication?
“If you trust in yourself, and believe in your dreams, and follow your star. . . you'll still get beaten by people who spent their time working hard and learning things and weren't so lazy.”

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Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Post by Scooter »

Thank the NRA and those politicians that do their bidding.
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Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Post by Lord Jim »

California gunman, in manifesto, said police nearly thwarted plot

(Reuters) - A 22-year-old man who killed six people before taking his own life in a rampage through a California college town said in a chilling manifesto that police who knocked on his door last month to check on his welfare nearly foiled his plot.

Elliot Rodger, the son of a Hollywood director, stabbed three people to death in his apartment before gunning down three more victims on Friday night in the town of Isla Vista near the campus of the University of California at Santa Barbara (UCSB).

Rodger, who posted a threatening video railing against women online shortly before his rampage, stalked Isla Vista in his car and on foot, firing on bystanders in a killing spree that ended when he killed himself after a shootout with sheriff's deputies, police said.

But less than a month before his attacks, after he had planned the killings and obtained the guns he would use, the community college student opened his door to a knock to find about seven officers looking for him.

"I had the striking and devastating fear that someone had somehow discovered what I was planning to do, and reported me for it," Rodger said in a manifesto obtained by California's KEYT-TV, excerpts of which were published by the Los Angeles Times.

"If that was the case, the police would have searched my room, found all of my guns and weapons, along with my writings about what I plan to do with them. I would have been thrown in jail, denied of the chance to exact revenge on my enemies. I can't imagine a hell darker than that. Thankfully, that wasn't the case, but it was so close," he wrote.


He said he learned that videos he posted online had alarmed his mother, and he believed either she or a mental health agency had asked authorities to check up on him.

"The police interrogated me outside for a few minutes, asking me if I had suicidal thoughts. I tactfully told them that it was all a misunderstanding, and they finally left," he said in the manifesto, according to the Times.

"For a few horrible seconds I thought it was all over. When they left, the biggest wave of relief swept over me. It was so scary,"
he wrote, adding he removed the videos with plans to repost them closer to the date of his planned attack.

In a YouTube video posted shortly before the rampage, a young man believed by police to be Rodger bitterly complained of loneliness and rejection by women and outlined his plan to kill those he believed spurned him.

MENTALLY DISTURBED

Santa Barbara County Sheriff Bill Brown has said that Rodger was seen by a variety of healthcare professionals and it was "very, very apparent he was severely mentally disturbed."

Brown said his department had been in contact with Rodger three times prior to the killings, including for a welfare check in which deputies found him to be polite and courteous. He did not appear to meet criteria to be held involuntarily on mental health grounds, and deputies took no further action, Brown said.

"At the time the deputies interacted with him, he was able to convince them that he was OK," Brown told CBS' "Face the Nation" on Sunday.

"When you read his autobiography and the manifesto that he wrote, it's very apparent that he was able to convince many people for many years that he didn't have this deep, underlying, obvious mental illness that ultimately manifested itself in this terrible tragedy,"
he added.

In a plot laid out in writing, Rodger said he planned to first kill his housemates then lure others to his residence to continue his killings, before slaughtering women in a university sorority and continuing his spree in the streets of Isla Vista. Then, he would commit suicide.

He wrote that he also planned to kill his younger brother, "denying him of the chance to grow up to surpass me", as well as his stepmother, who he said would be in the way - killings he did not carry out.

But he did not think he was mentally prepared to kill his father, Peter Rodger, an assistant director on the 2012 film "The Hunger Games," according to the manifesto.

A lawyer for the family, Alan Shifman, said they offered sympathy to those affected by the tragedy. Shifman declined further comment on Sunday, and family members of Rodger could not immediately be reached.

In suburban Los Angeles, authorities carried out search warrants at the homes of both of Rodger's parents. Neither were home at the time.

BYSTANDERS KILLED

On Friday, after stabbing to death three people in his residence, Rodger went to a nearby sorority house and knocked on the door. No one answered, and shortly afterward he shot three women standing outside, killing students Katherine Cooper, 22, and Veronica Weiss, 19, Brown said on Saturday.

At a nearby delicatessen, Rodger shot dead 20-year-old UCSB English major Christopher Michael-Martinez before fleeing in his car. As he drove, he shot at pedestrians, traded fire with police and struck two cyclists before crashing. In addition to those killed, 13 people were wounded, eight of whom were shot.

Officers found Rodger dead of an apparently self-inflicted gunshot wound. In his car were three legally purchased semiautomatic guns, two Sig Sauers and a Glock, and more than 400 rounds of unspent ammunition, Brown said.

He told CBS that there was no evidence Rodger had ever been institutionalized or committed for an involuntary hold of any kind, situations that could have prohibited him from legally buying guns.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/ ... 5120140525

It seems to me that we need to look at a couple of things here:

First, we need to consider a criteria for premise searches in mental health check situations different from standard criteria. Any practiced sociopath who only has to spend a couple of minutes standing outside talking to the cops without becoming hostile or agitated is going to be able to pull that off.

Second, we also need to look at broadening the definition of a mental condition that would prohibit one from legally buying a fire arm from "been institutionalized or committed for an involuntary hold of any kind." (Especially since we've made involuntary holds such a difficult thing to do.)

As this has unfolded over the past several days, I've seen and read a lot of talk in the media about "red flags being missed" and "signs being ignored"...

The more I learn about this, the more it is apparent to me that in this case, that isn't at all what happened. Even after the final video was posted, the parents were desperately trying to prevent the tragedy:
The parents of Santa Barbara shooter Elliot Rodger had read his chilling manifesto and were frantically trying to stop their son carry out his plan when they heard of the massacre on the radio, it emerged Sunday.

The 22-year-old had emailed the 140-page document to a couple of dozen people including his parents and at least one of his therapists just hours before he went on his shooting rampage Friday night, family friend Simon Astaire told CNN.

Lichin Rodger, the suspect's mother, reportedly received the email at 9.17pm and immediately went on to her son's YouTube page where she found the newly uploaded video titled 'Retribution' which describes his plan of 'slaughtering' women at a sorority house at the University of California at Santa Barbara.

According to CNN, Mrs Rodger then alerted her estranged husband, Peter, and after he watched the video she called 911. The former couple then set off from Los Angeles to Santa Barbara to try find their son.

But they were too late, and, according to Mr Astaire, they heard about the shooting en route.

Later that night, their worst fears were confirmed when they were told their son was behind the massacre that left six victims dead and 13 injured.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... house.html

It seems to me that every "sign" and "red flag" from the time this guy was eight years old till the day of the massacre, was seen and acted upon.

It looks to me like we've gone so far in the direction of avoiding stigmatizing the mentally ill, and protecting their rights, that we've structured the system in such a way that it makes what happened here unavoidable. Every party involved in dealing with this guy; the parents, the mental health professionals, the mental health authorities, the police...all acted responsibly and did everything they could within the constraints of the laws.

It's the laws themselves that failed here; the laws that so narrowly define being unable to legally purchase a firearm based on a mental condition; the laws that make it so difficult to compel people to take medication for mental illness, the laws that make it so difficult to carry out a temporary mental health hold, the laws that make it so difficult to search the premises of a mentally ill person...

All of these combined to enable what happened here; not the failing of any individual or agency.

There are certainly arguments for having these laws structured this way, but so long as we do, events like this will always be part of the cost. Perhaps it's time to take a look across the board at whether or not the legal pendulum hasn't swung too far in this direction.

I'm certainly not suggesting that we go back to the days where anyone diagnosed with any sort of mental illness get's tossed in a mental asylum for years with no legal recourse. But I have to believe we can strike a better balance then the situation we have today, where no matter how many "red flags" or "warning signs" there are, no effective compulsory action can be taken until the person has either killed or seriously injured someone.
Last edited by Lord Jim on Tue May 27, 2014 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Post by BoSoxGal »

I agree with your arguments about tightening restrictions by broadening the definition of mental behavior that justifies abrogating the 2nd Amendment; but if you lived in mountain Montana as I do, you'd realized that the reason there is a strong backlash from the NRA and 2nd Amendment folks whenever that is suggested is because so many of them exhibit such behavior - albeit on a somewhat different spectrum. They are zealots, and many are borderline delusional - like the Clive Bundy type, that doesn't recognize the federal government's authority and is itching to gun down some Federal agents.
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Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Post by BoSoxGal »

Just read this in an article about this shooting:
At least 44 shootings have occurred at elementary, middle, and high schools, as well as on college campuses, around the country since the massacre in Newtown, Conn. The gun debate is currently stalled in Washington.
I knew it seemed like a lot of shootings recently; one every other week at schools/colleges - and if course, plenty more in other settings.

I hope I live to see meaningful gun control passed in this country.
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Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Post by Sue U »

There can be no meaningful gun control in this country until the Second Amendment is repealed and possession of firearms is made presumptively unlawful. The only effective way to reduce gun violence is to drastically reduce the number of guns in circulation and make it difficult to impossible to acquire any more. The Second Amendment has long outlived its usefulness and is now a deadly anachronism. The solution is blindingly simple: Fewer guns = less gun violence. But as John Oliver noted, "One failed shoe bomb and now we all have to take off out shoes at the airport. Thirty-one school shootings since Columbine and no change in the regulation of guns." This country has its priorities all fucked up.
GAH!

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Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Post by BoSoxGal »

You're exactly right, of course. And I recall that John Oliver bit - spot on!

Having lived in Montana for a few years too many now, I know in my heart that I won't live to see meaningful gun control. We have a zero-security courthouse where I work, and more than a few crazy citizens (who probably own more guns than clothes) who come down from the mountains to Commission meetings to spout anti-government stuff on a weekly basis. I've been threatened, as have several other elected officials. It's hard to describe what it is like to be afraid in the workplace like many of us are; you try not to let it get to you all the time - but it does.

These kind of people live all over this country - the whole Clive Bundy thing with the Feds running off from a bunch of armed rednecks - it's all very chilling.

This is a huge reason I am contemplating a return to the northeast, and/or a move out of the country. The politics of crazy and ugly in a society swimming in firearms doesn't make for a very attractive setting in which to hold public office or prosecute crime.

I've come to hate being a prosecutor here, anyway - but that's a story for a different thread.
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Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Post by rubato »

The NRA should be ashamed.


yrs,
rubato

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Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Post by Gob »

Look, we've collectively decided, as a country, that the occasional massacre is okay with us. It's the price we're willing to pay for our precious Second Amendment freedoms. We're content to forfeit the lives of a few dozen schoolkids a year as long as we get to keep our guns. The people have spoken, in a cheering civics-class example of democracy in action.

http://theweek.com/article/index/262219 ... z33DPsdvL7
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Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

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:loon
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Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Post by Econoline »

Oh, don't worry, it was just an "unfortunate accident"...

There are, of course, other sources for this story...but I liked the level of snark from Charles Pierce at Esquire's Politics Blog:
(Optional Musical Accompaniment To This Post)

Joni Ernst, Republican candidate for the U.S. Senate in Iowa and veteran juggler of hog testicles, has an opinion on the mass murder in Santa Barbara that she'd like to share. It seems that her campaign, having analyzed data that showed she'd garnered all of the pig-castrating votes that she was likely to get, launched an ad that showed Joni making the big boom-boom with her gun. The debate's moderator was curious if Joni thought the release of this ad particularly ill-timed, given the events in California.

"Yes, I would say to this viewer that what happened in that shooting and that stabbing is an absolute tragedy," Ernst said. "However, I remain firm in my commitment to the Second Amendment. I have been endorsed by the NRA in this race, and again, just because of a horrible, horrible tragedy, I don't believe we should be infringing upon people's Second Amendment rights." The moderator then asked Ernst if she would change the ad or its timing in light of the UCSB shooting. "I would not -- no. This unfortunate accident happened after the ad, but it does highlight that I want to get rid of, repeal, and replace Bruce Braley's Obamacare," Ernst replied, referring to a Democratic Senate candidate. "And it also shows that I am a strong supporter of the Second Amendment. That is a fundamental right."

An accident. Right.

And I am reminded of the great line attributed to the late Murray Kempton who, while covering the trial of Jean Harris for ventilating her lover, Dr. Herman Tarnower, was asked if he bought Harris's defense that she was so distraught that she didn't know what she was doing when she shot Tarnower. Kempton is said to have replied, IIRC, "She lost me after the third bullet." I'd have bought Joni's theory of the case, but she lost me after the fourth victim.

Also, too: the "accident" "highlights" that Joni wants to "get rid of, repeal, and replace" Obamacare? I just fell out of the car on that last curve.

These really are the fking mole people.
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Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Post by Lord Jim »

I guess we don't need to be concerned about this anymore, since it never really happened (or if it did, the government carried it out):
Punk icon Exene Cervenka claims Santa Barbara shooting a ‘false flag’ [there's that false flag thing again...the phrase "false flag" should always be a "red flag"] government hoax

Punk singer Exene Cervenka posted a series of tweets Wednesday questioning whether the government staged last week’s mass shootings in Isla Vista, California, to enact stricter gun control laws.

Cervenka, who performed with the bands X and the Knitters, posted links to videos questioning how quickly replacement panes were delivered for glass damaged during the shooting at a convenience store where Christopher Martinez was killed.

The 20-year-old’s father, Richard Martinez, has been a vocal critic of “gutless” politicians who have failed to put tighter restrictions on gun ownership.

Another video promoted by Cervenka claims the University of California, Santa Barbara, shootings were staged by the same agents who staged mass shootings at Sandy Hook Elementary and a Georgia FedEx facility.

The narrator of that video complains no “Sandy Hook truther,” a sobriquet he spits out bitterly, would steal a sign from a memorial park dedicated to one of the 6-year-old victims of that 2012 massacre.

“We know that if we do something like that it’s just going to make us look bad,” the narrator says.

But he then goes on to point out all the Illuminati imagery he sees in that missing sign.

Cervenka’s own YouTube channel includes videos she produced that describe former President Bill Clinton and pop singer Miley Cyrus as “Illuminati finger puppets” and question the official account of the Boston Marathon bombing.

She also promotes the failed “Million Trucker Drive” intended to shut down Washington, D.C., to protest President Barack Obama and other elected officials, in a rambling, six-minute video.

Other videos Cervenka posted question various news events, particularly violent tragedies, as hoaxes intended to press some government agenda.

Cervanka will perform X’s first four albums in their entirety in July with the other three original members of the band at the Roxy in West Hollywood.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/29/p ... ment-hoax/
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Re: And Again . . . 7 Dead, More Injured - College Shooting

Post by Sue U »

X is probably my all-time favorite rock-and-roll band; I hung out a bit with Exene on more than a few occasions through the 1980s after meeting her on their first East Coast tour (X was on a bill with the Go-Gos and several local bands at a decrepit former ballroom under the El in Philly). She was always inscrutable and kinda kooky, but I think she has really gone off the deep end in the last few years. She has had other health problems that may or may not relate to her mental status; I wouldn't put money on her making it to or through the gig at the Roxy. It's really very sad.
GAH!

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