Malaysian Passenger Jet Shot Down Over Ukraine

[Lord Jim]

So, no thoughts on the Anthony Bourdain "short guy theory"?

ETA:

Napoleon was short...

Hitler was short...

Putin is short...

Coincidence?

I think not...

[Econoline]

[Lord Jim]

But none of them had the cross to bear that the new President Of Egypt has had to endure...

How would you like to go through junior high school gym class with the last name el-Sissi?

[Lord Jim]

I suppose the next step in this kabuki dance is to see how Putin responds, and what he does next...

That may take a day or two, or perhaps a week...

With Putin you can't pay any attention whatsoever to what he says; he always talks total bollocks...

His actions are the only thing that count...

Is he withdrawing support from his thugs or not? Are advanced heavy weaponry continuing to pour over the border from Russia to Ukraine or not? Are Russian GRU agents and Spestnaz forces continuing to stage manage the thugs or not?

These are the things we need to be looking at....

And we'll learn these things not by listening to the claims of that lying weasel, but from intel on the ground and high res satellite footage...

ETA:

Plus the fact of course that he's short...

[Crackpot]

http://www.cracked.com/article_21341_5- ... worse.html

Probably preaching to the choir here but...

[Lord Jim]

Excellent article, CP...

the sheer fact that the assertion is outrageous and dismissed by experts makes people believe it more.

Due to the fear that scientists and pharmaceutical companies are all in on the scam, people tend to only trust the words of outsiders who have no idea what the hell they're talking about

A few years ago back at the CSB, I also did a list of the elements of the conspiracy theorist mindset, and included something like that myself...

In the topsy turvey Alice In Wonderland alternative reality of the conspiracy theorist, the less actual first hand knowledge and expertise a person has about something the more likely it is that they're giving you the straight truth.... (Since all the people who actually know something are in on the conspiracy.)

"BAHHHHHHH, SHEEPLE!"

Gee, now where have I seen that before...

it's almost like conspiracy theories turn you into an asshole.

That certainly proved to be true in Steve's case...

[TPFKA@W]

The US did the same flipping thing in1988 I think. Shot down similar number of civilians over Iranian airspace and never apologized for it. Never admited guilt but did a big payout. All world leaders are egregious mother puckers unconcerned with the actual death merely happy to point fingers. Bastards the whole lot.

[rubato]

Napoleon was close to the average height for men of his time and place (5ft 6in). Hitler was taller 5ft 8in vs 5ft 5.75in for his birth cohort. Putin appears to be slightly below at 5ft 7in vs 5ft 9in average.

http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~hatton/T ... _paper.pdf

Myths spread quickly and die slowly. Especially those watered by emotionally appealing 'theories'.


yrs,
rubato

[Joe Guy]

Myths spread quickly and die slowly. Especially those watered by emotionally appealing 'theories'.

Only a short person would say that.

[Lord Jim]

Myths spread quickly and die slowly. Especially those watered by emotionally appealing 'theories'.

Man ain't that the truth...

Take the myth that Carter inherited high inflation from Nixon and Ford for example...

Or the myth that Clinton's early tax increase caused economic growth...

I spray and I spray, but those weeds just keeps coming back...

[Lord Jim]

The Putinistas certainly aren't doing anything to improve their international image:

Alexander Borodai also said the bodies recovered from the crash site in eastern Ukraine would remain in refrigerated train cars at a station in the rebel-held town of Torez until the arrival of an international aviation delegation.

Ukraine and the separatists accuse each other of firing a surface-to-air missile Thursday at Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 as it flew from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur some 33,000 feet above the battlefields of eastern Ukraine. Both deny shooting down the plane. All those onboard the flight - 283 passengers and 15 crew - were killed.

In another sign pointing to rebel, and Russian, responsibility for the shoot down, U.S. intelligence has detected movement of SA-11 surface-to-air-missiles - the same type responsible for downing the airliner - from rebel-held areas of Ukraine into Russian territory,[a little late to try and cover your tracks, boys] CBS News chief national security correspondent David Martin reports.

The latest intelligence, combined with the fact that U.S. officials are confident they know where all the SA-11's belonging to the Ukrainian military are located, adds to what Secretary of State John Kerry is calling "an overwhelming circumstantial case" that Russia supplied the SA-11 that shot down the plane.

Moscow denies those charges.

The U.S. embassy in Kiev issued a strong statement pointing to Russian complicity in arming the rebels, saying it has concluded "that Flight MH17 was likely downed by a SA-11 surface-to-air missile from separatist-controlled territory in eastern Ukraine."

It said over the weekend of July 12-13, "Russia sent a convoy of military equipment with up to 150 vehicles, including tanks armored personnel carriers artillery, and multiple rockets launchers" to the separatists. The statement also said Russia was training separatist fighters in southwest Russia, including on air defense systems.

At the scene of the wreckage, it was immediately not clear Sunday if the rebels and the Ukrainian government were working together or at odds with each other on recovering the bodies. And from their comments, many of officials didn't appear to know either.

A Ukrainian emergency spokeswoman said the armed rebels had forced emergency workers to hand over all 196 bodies recovered from the Malaysia Airlines crash site and did not tell them where the bodies were going. Ukrainian government officials, meanwhile, prepared a disaster crisis center in the government-held city of Kharkiv, expecting to receive the bodies, but those hopes appeared delayed or even dashed Sunday.

"The bodies will go nowhere until experts arrive," Borodai said, speaking in the rebel-held city of Donetsk.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-ai ... els-claim/

The way they're handling this has got me wondering something...

Are these people really stupid enough, (I know they're vile enough, that's not even a question) to try and use these bodies to extract some sort of "ransom" in terms of concessions from the Ukrainian government, or for financial gain? Is this something they are seriously considering? The fact that they are insisting on keeping control over the bodies of the victims suggests they are trying to keep all their options open...

I'll feel a lot better about this when the remains of these unfortunate people are out of the hands of these thugs and on their way back to their grieving families. Swiftly facilitating this is the very least these bastards can do.

[Gob]

Putin appears to be slightly below at 5ft 7in vs 5ft 9in average.

http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~hatton/T ... _paper.pdf

Myths spread quickly and die slowly. Especially those watered by emotionally appealing 'theories'.


yrs,
rubato

So the "rumour" that Putin has shortarse syndrome is based on the fact of his being under average height, thanks for that.

[Big RR]

Are these people really stupid enough, (I know they're vile enough, that's not even a question) to try and use these bodies to extract some sort of "ransom" in terms of concessions from the Ukrainian government, or for financial gain? Is this something they are seriously considering?

I would hope not; and if it were the case, I would hope the governmental authorities would be strong enough to tell them to go pound sand. While I understand the emotional attachment the families (or at least some of them) have to the remains, these are dead bodies, not living beings. I would hope they would have the same strength Charlie Chaplin' widow had when his body was disinterred and held for ransom; she told the grave robbers to keep the remains and that she wouldn't pay a penny. Sometimes you just have to be practical.

[Lord Jim]

The thugs are showing a minimal level of decency:

Russia’s Message on Jet: Conciliation and Bluster

MOSCOW — Russia presented a combination of conciliation and bluster on Monday over its handling of the downed Malaysia Airlines jet, with President Vladimir V. Putin seemingly probing for a way out of the crisis without appearing to compromise with the West.

On one hand, he offered conciliatory words in a video statement, oddly released in the middle of the night, while the separatists allied with Moscow in southeastern Ukraine released the bodies of the victims and turned over the black box flight recorders from the doomed aircraft to Malaysian officials.

However, two senior military officers forcefully demanded that the United States show publicly any proof that rebels fired the fatal missile,[Not a problem comrade] and again suggested that the Ukrainian military shot down the Malaysia Airlines jet despite the fact that Ukraine has not used antiaircraft weapons in the fight along its eastern border.

Mr. Putin seemed to respond to the outraged international demands growing daily that he intervene personally to rein in the rebels — particularly to halt the degrading chaos surrounding the recovery of the remains. But at the same time, Moscow did not concede that it was at fault.

“Putin is trying to find his own variation of a twin-track decision, because he does not have a clear exit,” said Gleb O. Pavlovsky, a political consultant who once worked for the Kremlin.

The pressure continued to expand. President Obama delivered yet another personal rebuke to Mr. Putin from the White House lawn over the intransigence of the rebels toward the international investigation, hours before they agreed to more cooperation. In addition, an initial expert analysis of photographs of the airplane’s fuselage found that the damage was consistent with being struck by the type of missile that U.S. officials said was used.

On Tuesday, Russia faces the threat of far more serious sanctions from its main trading partners in Western Europe.

“Of course this is a strong blow to him, a strong blow to his strategy,” said Mr. Pavlovsky, referring to the fact that Russian separatists fighting in eastern Ukraine have been discredited globally, due to suspicions that they shot down the aircraft and their handling of the crash site.

“It touches him too,” Mr. Pavlovsky said, “He wants to get out, but to get out without having lost.”

Mr. Obama called for Mr. Putin to “pivot away” from the rebels, linking him directly to their abuse of the crash site.

“Russia, and President Putin in particular, has direct responsibility to compel them to cooperate with the investigation,” he said in brief remarks. “President Putin says that he supports a full and fair investigation and I appreciate those words, but they have to be supported by actions.”

Mr. Putin’s statement was issued on the Kremlin website at 1:40 a.m. Monday on video, with analysts suggesting the timing was aimed more at Washington than Russia.

His usual swagger seemed absent; instead he looked pasty and unsure, avoiding talking into the camera directly and leaning on a desk.

The statement did not break new ground, either. The Russian leader repeated his support for a thorough international investigation, and said Russia would pursue its efforts to move the fight over the future of southeastern Ukraine from the battlefield to the negotiating table. Mr. Putin did not address directly any accusations of Russian complicity in downing the aircraft.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world ... ation.html

It is of course problematic when you have the criminals in charge of the crime scene, but that problem is mitigated somewhat when the criminals are so ignorant that they have no idea of how to cover their tracks...

[Econoline]

It occurred to me--and later I heard it stated as fact on some news program (I forget where)--that the U.S. and possibly other nations quite likely have satellite images showing exactly where those missiles were launched. I wonder if this is true? I wonder when those images (if they indeed exist) will surface?

[oldr_n_wsr]

It occurred to me--and later I heard it stated as fact on some news program (I forget where)--that the U.S. and possibly other nations quite likely have satellite images showing exactly where those missiles were launched. I wonder if this is true? I wonder when those images (if they indeed exist) will surface?

I have heard that also.

[Lord Jim]

Shorty's idea of how to de-escalte the conflict:

Russian military fires artillery into eastern Ukraine

The Russian military fired artillery rounds into eastern Ukraine on Thursday, a "clear escalation" of hostilities there, Army Col. Steve Warren, a Pentagon spokesman, said.

Russia has about 12,000 troops on the border with Ukraine, Warren said. Russian tanks, artillery and rocket launchers have crossed into Ukraine to support separatists there.

Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel has not spoken to his Russian counterpart about the artillery attack and has no plans to, Warren said.

"This is a clear escalation," Warren said.

The Russians have conducted artillery attacks on Ukraine military targets for the last several days, Warren said.

The State Department also said Thursday they had evidence of the Russian attack.

"We have new evidence that the Russians intend to deliver heavier and more powerful multiple rocket launchers to separatist forces in Ukraine and have evidence that Russia is firing artillery from within Russian to attack Ukrainian military positions," State Department spokeswoman Marie Harf told reporters.

The allegations come a day after two Ukrainian attack planes were shot down over rebel-held territory. Ukraine's government said the missiles were fired from Russia. U.S. defense and intelligence officials said they could not verify the claim.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl ... /13108615/

[Lord Jim]

I heard an analysis earlier today on CNN...I haven't had time to verify the numbers...

That the EU collective GDP is about 17 trillion US dollars...(almost exactly equal to the US GDP...)

The Russian GDP, on the other hand, is around 2 trillion US dollars, give or take...

The EU receives about 30% of it's imported natural gas from Russia...

Russia receives about 70% of it's hard currency profits from Europe...

The glib assessment that says that "Russia is a gas station with a country" is pretty much correct...

All that we have to do in The West, (in Europe, and in the US; we should share the pain with our allies) is to stand up to this sonuvabitch and say:

"okay, you think you can make things tough for us? Go ahead, "make our day"...yeah you'll make our lives tough, but you'll be finished... "

And we, and your long suffering people will be rid of you, and your vainglorious egomaniacal objectives, and it will be well worth the sacrifice...

We can defeat Putin and his delusional desire to rebuild The Soviet Union, and become a Latter Day "Valdimir The Great".. (the oligarchs who have stood with him don't share the same delusional desires; all they want to do is make money...)

And we can do it without firing a shot...

All that we have to do, is to convince Putin that we and The Europeans are prepared to stand up to him...

In fact, we don't even have to do that much...

All we have to do is convince The Russian Oligarchs that we might...

[Lord Jim]

If we don't do the obvious things required to stand up to this thug, do you think things are going to get better?

What a profound lack of understanding of history it would require to reach that conclusion...

It is enormously depressing to me, when I see members of even my own party, engaged in an embarrassing strategy that will not only undermine our abilities to go after our enemies abroad, but disrupt our abilities to combat them when they come home...

I have a very depressing fear, (I hope I'm wrong) that the American people have become so disillusioned (by the war in Iraq, and the war in Afghanistan,) that they're not inclined to embrace the fact that we have a real problem on our hands...and just as during The Cold War, we need to remain stalwart...without regard to what mistakes may have been made...

And that we need to have a forward leaning national defense posture abroad, and a robust national intelligence structure at home...

And politicians, both on The Pacifist Left and the Neo-Isolationist Right who become The Flavor of the day, are truly bad news for our country...

Rand Paul really gets me...here's a guy who wants to dismantle our external international defense systems and alliances, and completely disable our internal intelligence defense systems at the same time...

(And he's supposed to be a Republican ferchrissakes... )

Instead of being considered a semi-serious candidate for the Presidency, he ought to be shot for Treason...

(Well, okay, maybe that's a little over the top...but not much... )

ETA:

I really hope I'm wrong about this, but I frankly think the dynamics of what are in play here, absent strong political leadership, are going to lead us into a situation where we're not going to appreciate the threat posed to us until it strikes hard again...

Especially if we have a political leadership that is split between trying to declare "victory" in the WOT, and others trying to get us to focus on the imaginary, paranoid threat to Americans being killed by drones at Starbucks, rather than the very real Islamo-Fascist threat posed by ISIS in the Caliphate it is carving out in the failed-state sections of Iraq and Syria...

[oldr_n_wsr]

Very well put Lord Jim. We can make up for any gas loss hte EU may have. It should be told to those people in play.