Uzi kidding

[wesw]

I ve learned not to believe any graph or study that some one cites.

[wesw]

gob, I sincerely hope no thug of any sort ever bursts thru your door, or anyones door. me? I ll keep my 12ga in easy reach just in case ...

[Gob]

I ve learned not to believe any graph or study that some one cites.

Find me a graph or study which does not show the US way, way, way, way, out in front of the gun death league then?

gob, I sincerely hope no thug of any sort ever bursts thru your door, or anyones door. me? I ll keep my 12ga in easy reach just in case ...

Ok, I can live with that. Why would a thug be bursting through my door though?

As of 2012 the most common crimes in the ACT are property related crimes, unlawful entry with intent and motor vehicle theft. They affected 2,386 and 968 people (637 and 258 per 100,000 persons respectively). Homicide and related offences—murder, attempted murder and manslaughter, but excluding driving causing death and conspiracy to murder—affect 1.6 per 100,000 persons, which is below the national average of 2.0 per 100,000.

It's far more likely that this situation would happen.

A man who killed an unarmed woman who banged on his door at night has been sentenced to 17 years in prison.

Theodore Wafer was convicted of the second-degree murder of Renisha McBride, 19, who was drunk when she crashed her car near his home in suburban Detroit.

Before sentencing, he apologised to her family and said: "I will carry that guilt and sorrow forever."

[wesw]

I truly don t know why they do it. I don t. but everyone is not me.
addiction perhaps? religious zealotry? just plain nastiness? insanity?
your guess is as good as mine, but it happens.

[liberty]

I m pretty sure that mexico s vast majority of good people would not live in fear of the brutal killers of the cartels if they were all armed.

Mexicans have a right to bear arms. Why should they fear the brutal killers of the cartels? All they need to do is buy many guns for themselves and they will likely fear nothing on earth.

Maybe it would be a good idea for some hombre to start recruiting people to join a Mexican té party...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the ... story.html

Mireles denied reports that he had authorized his militia to disarm. He said the militia controls 28 towns in Michoacan, or one-quarter of the state. He said he eventually wants his followers to “return to our communities and go back to our daily activities.” But he said that first they must stop the cartels from “charging protection fees, committing executions, kidnapping, extortion, rape.”

[wesw]

I only have to look to our southern neighbors to see a much much worse problem.

[Gob]

I truly don t know why they do it. I don t. but everyone is not me.
addiction perhaps? religious zealotry? just plain nastiness? insanity?
your guess is as good as mine, but it happens.

In all my life, living in three countries, and living in capital cities, and in rough areas of big cities, it has never happened to me, nor to anyone I know.

[Lord Jim]

Find me a graph or study which does not show the US way, way, way, way, out in front of the gun death league then?

Well, there are a couple of things wrong with that...

First of all, measuring "gun deaths" is pretty meaningless unless compared to overall figures, broken down by category...(because in the final analysis, "dead is dead" regardless if one is killed by a gun, a knife or a cricket bat...)

For example, I've posted here a couple of times census data that shows conclusively that in so far as suicide is concerned, there is no correlation whatsoever between the relative availability of firearms in a country, and the suicide rate...

But even if you take out the suicides, there are other factors that need to be considered...

For example, what percentage of those "gun deaths" are bad guys being killed by by people defending themselves, their homes, or their families?

Why would a thug be bursting through my door though? It's far more likely that this situation would happen.

We had a discussion along these lines earlier..

UPDATE: Alzheimer's patient shot to death in Chickamauga, mistaken for prowler:

Okay rube, I'll see your Alzheimer patient, and raise you five dead scumbags:

Resident shoots and kills masked intruder who burst into Dorchester home; second suspect is captured

Two masked men who forced their way into a Dorchester apartment this morning were met by an armed resident who opened fire, killing one and chasing the other out of the building, where police arrested him, Boston Police Commissioner William Evans said today.

“The suspects came into the apartment masked,’’ Evans told reporters at the scene. “The homeowner also had a firearm and shot one of the suspects dead.”

Police responding to the scene shortly after 9 a.m. saw the second suspect fleeing down Esmond Street, still carrying a gun he had allegedly brandished moments earlier inside the apartment building. He was arrested nearby.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massac ... story.html

Two home invasion suspects are on the run and a third was fatally shot by a South Florida resident who fought back against the armed intruders with an AK-47 Thursday night, police said.

The incident happened at a home on the 6100 block of Southwest 48th Street, Davie Police spokesman Capt. Dale Engle said.

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Person-Sho ... 97771.html

Police: 2 suspects dead in home invasion

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Two people are dead after what the Jacksonville Sheriff Office is calling a home invasion in the Fort Caroline area.

JSO says it all started around 11:20 p.m. Wednesday when they got a report of shots fired at a home in the 2000 block of Oak Water Drive.

Officers found that a group of suspects had tried to break into the home.

"They barged in guns pointed at us screaming get on the ground, where is your money, where is your money. And the next thing I know boom, boom, boom, boom," said "Big John" who lives in the home and did not want to be identified.

http://www.firstcoastnews.com/story/new ... 7/4607157/

SC home invader shot, killed

PIEDMONT, S.C. — Anderson County authorities say a home invasion near Piedmont has left the intruder dead and the homeowner injured.

Coroner Greg Shore said a 39-year-old Williamston man was dead on arrival at Greenville Memorial Hospital from a gunshot wound to the chest Monday night.

Sheriff’s Lt. Sheila Cole said a 78-year-old homeowner was shot in the stomach. He was in serious condition following surgery at the hospital. The man’s wife was at home and was not injured.

http://chronicle.augusta.com/latest-new ... hot-killed

So from the evidence presented in this thread, we can now scientifically conclude that scumbags are five times more likely to die in confrontations with armed home residents than wandering Alzheimer patients...

I wonder what the overall ratio of "home invasion by scumbag" compared to "home invasion by wandering Alzheimer patient" is? ... I suspect it may be substantial....

[Gob]

The use of firearms in suicides ranges from less than 10 percent in Australia, to 50 percent in the United States, where it is the most common method, and where suicides outnumber homicides 2-to-1

[Guinevere]

I truly don t know why they do it. I don t. but everyone is not me.
addiction perhaps? religious zealotry? just plain nastiness? insanity?
your guess is as good as mine, but it happens.

In all my life, living in three countries, and living in capital cities, and in rough areas of big cities, it has never happened to me, nor to anyone I know.

I lived on Capital Hill in the 80s and 90s. I was fine. Never needed or wanted a gun. And yes, there was violence and drugs all around but it was never an issue for me - I sincerely believe - because I didn't have or want a gun, and because I treated everyone I met I in that city - from homeless alcoholic drug addicts to the President of the United States- with respect.

[Guinevere]

Oh, what the fuck...I'm gonna go ahead and post this. It's really gonna piss off some of you here, but I think this is funny as hell, and mostly true:

"Responsible slave owners."

Thanks, Econo, that was hilarious (and more than mostly true).

This was fabulous and totally spot on. I was screaming with laughter. I especially loved him "American gun owner voice." This performance was in Boston at the Wilbur, I might add. Wish I had seen it.

"You know what's good about a musket? Muskets give you time to calm down." Who can possibly quibble with that?

[Lord Jim]

The use of firearms in suicides ranges from less than 10 percent in Australia, to 50 percent in the United States, where it is the most common method, and where suicides outnumber homicides 2-to-1

Okay, I guess my point's being missed, so I'll repost this again:

I've been conceding that the data that has been brought to the table here does show a higher likelihood of suicide being committed in households with guns than in households without, (as opposed to the data on homicides, which shows nothing of the sort)

But I've also raised the "chicken or the egg" question about it; ie, do the people get guns because they are suicidal, and that's the method they choose, (if guns weren't available, they'd simply choose something else) or does the presence of a gun in the household somehow make the commission of a suicide more likely?

Seems I was right to raise this question; the statistics on suicide rates between countries shows absolutely no correlation between suicide rates and the relative ease with which one can obtain a firearm in any country.

At this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

You will see a table ranking the suicide rate per 100,000 of population for 107 countries. (Given the table pasting formating challenges on the forum, there ain't no way I'm going to take the time to copy and paste it all)

The US ranks 34th. Several countries with much stronger gun control laws rank higher (again, all numbers per 100,000 of population) Japan, (some of the toughest gun control laws in the free world) 21.9, France 15.0, New Zealand, 13.2, Austria, 12.8....

The US comes in at 12.0, but right behind us are tough gun law countries Sweden and Denmark, (each at 11.9) Ireland and the UK (both 11.8) and Canada and Iceland at 11.3....

Now, there are many factors that that go into explaining suicide rates, social, cultural, economic, etc, (for example, it's logical to assume that one of the reasons the rate is so high in Japan is related to the whole "face" and "shame" thing...)

But these numbers pretty conclusively demonstrate is that the relative availability of firearms isn't one of those factors...

[Econoline]

In all my life, living in three countries, and living in capital cities, and in rough areas of big cities, it has never happened to me, nor to anyone I know.

I lived on Capital Hill in the 80s and 90s. I was fine. Never needed or wanted a gun. And yes, there was violence and drugs all around but it was never an issue for me - I sincerely believe - because I didn't have or want a gun, and because I treated everyone I met I in that city - from homeless alcoholic drug addicts to the President of the United States- with respect.

I've mentioned this before: I'm 67 years old, lived most of my life on the south side of Chicago*, never owned a gun, never needed a gun, never wanted a gun. And I'm fine, too. (Yes, my home has been burglarized a couple of times. All that means is that, if I had owned one or more guns, there would have been one or more more guns in the hands of criminals.)

I don't want to take your guns away; I just want the "militia" to be "well regulated". And--like Jim Jefferies in the video I posted above--I wish people who have guns would just admit that they have guns not because they need guns, but simply because they like guns. (And that having guns causes more problems than it solves.)


*(the baddest part of town, if you go down there you better just beware of a cat named Leroy Brown...)

[wesw]

econoline, (I like ford vans by the way) come on man, I don t mind you having your view. variety is he spice of life, no? but you know, I think, that you are distorting the meaning of the words when you say it should be well regulated. that works with many because they aren t well versed in 18th century language. on this site I don t think that s a problem.

its very clear by the 2nd amendment that we, the people, shall have the right to keep and bear arms and form a well organized (regulated) militia if we see fit. if you want to amend the constitution, that s our right, I won t wish you luck, but lets not be intellectually dishonest as to the meaning and intent of it. we have enough problems with distortion of the commerce clause s meaning by the courts.

the national guard is far from a citizen s militia. the example that Liberty cited from mexico is a citizens' militia. I m truly glad that you all have never been assaulted or threatened but that doesn t change the fact that many are. I m also glad that our govt doesn t tyrannize us, mostly, but that doesn t mean they never will.

I don t belong to the NRA or any group, I m just a guy who believes in the ideals of our country s founding and who believes that they are as relevant today as they were then.

[Sue U]

I have also lived and worked in some tough places -- Camden, Philadelphia and Miami. I have been mugged twice and my house was burglarized once (while I was asleep upstairs). Yet I have never felt the need or desire for a gun and having a gun in any of those situations would not have helped me at all -- and easily may have resulted in my being killed. It is quite frankly not worth my life or even a criminal's life to hold onto property; take my money, my watch, my TV -- they're only things.

Although I never wanted a gun, I used to be a supporter of the Second Amendment and gun rights, but have changed my mind over the last 20 years or so, particularly as gun crime (and especially homicide) has skyrocketed in Camden, where I still spend a lot of time. Almost all of the gun crime, including homicides, is related to drug trafficking. Having a gun is not going to help anyone in a typical robbery or anyone caught as a bystander in a drive-by or other drug gang hit.

The Second Amendment is now an anachronism that has long outlived whatever use it may have had. No amount of personal weaponry is ever going to repel a foreign invasion or overthrow a "tyrannical" central government. There is absolutely no rational contemporary public policy justification for enshrining gun ownership as a constitutional right. And it is the constitutional dimension that is the greatest impediment to sensible and practical gun regulation. The constitution is not inerrant and untouchable sacred scripture, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with re-examining its provisions in light of a changed world. The simple fact is, fewer guns = fewer gun crimes, especially when we're talking about handguns. It's high time the Second Amendment is repealed so that effective gun-control policy can be implemented.

[Guinevere]

Or, to quote Jim Jefferies again, "you're bringing a gun to a drone fight."

The last time the 2nd Amendment was relevant was in 1812 or so.

[dales]

Gob opined:

Ok, I can live with that. Why would a thug be bursting through my door though?

They're after your Marmite.

[Big RR]

To a certain extent I agree, but I haven't jumped on the repeal the second amendment bandwagon yet for a few reasons:

Initially, I am not convinced the repealing the amendment will reduce gun violence; yes there is a lot of gun violence in our streets, but I have not seen a definitive study that links it to legally available guns (other crimes, like domestic abuse, certainly, but Sue was talking about drug violence). Of course, some guns are obtained by theft from legal owners, but I have net seen any study saying this was a major proportion.

While guns are not needed for protection in highly populated areas like the northeast, there are many parts of our country where they are the primary line of defense. Unincorporated areas which can only get police protection from the state police or the sheriff which may not arrive for an hour or more. In such cases, arming oneself makes some sense, even if the crime rate isn't all that high.

Further, there are many people who use their guns for hunting (for sport and food, and for protection if they live in a wilderness area) and other sporting activities. I have friends who hunt and some who target shoot and enjoy it immensely.

Finally, while the type of arms an individual is likely to own can't repel "invaders" of the US, they can be used for protection in the event of a societal breakdown and loss of police protection. Those who have arms in such situations might be able to defend themselves. Is such an event likely to happen? According to some--yes. Hurricane Sandy disrupted gas supplies for a few days in NJ, and local police in some towns had a difficult time controlling crowds--imagine what a significant disruption in services would do.

And let me say, like Sue I have lived in some pretty seedy areas and traveled through many more, and have never felt the desire to own a gun. But I can understand others could have very different experiences and opinions. I think discussing repeal/reworking of the 2nd amendment makes sense, but we need to have an open conversation and listen to both sides of the issue.

[Sue U]

While guns are not needed for protection in highly populated areas like the northeast, there are many parts of our country where they are the primary line of defense. Unincorporated areas which can only get police protection from the state police or the sheriff which may not arrive for an hour or more. In such cases, arming oneself makes some sense, even if the crime rate isn't all that high.

Further, there are many people who use their guns for hunting (for sport and food, and for protection if they live in a wilderness area) and other sporting activities. I have friends who hunt and some who target shoot and enjoy it immensely.

Repeal of the Second Amendment doesn't mean that guns will be generally outlawed, especially in the case of rural owners and hunters. All it means is that state and local governments would be able to regulate ownership, type and use of firearms without fear of constitutional infraction. I'm sure there are numerous legitimate reasons for gun ownership -- even handguns -- but that doesn't require a constitutional "right" to ownership. What is wrong with a licensed privilege?

[Gob]

They're after your Marmite.

I'll buy a howitzer in that case!!