"Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

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BoSoxGal
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by BoSoxGal »

It actually took 5 decades to wipe out the bison, between 1830-1880. In 1830 the population was still in the many millions, albeit more pressure was being brought to bear on the population by Indians forced West with horses and guns by European 'Manifest Destiny'. Still, there was plenty of bison to feed the Indians until the government and the railroads and the settlers all made it their mission to wipe them out.

Here's the sad reality of American bison history:

http://www.fws.gov/bisonrange/timeline.htm

Of particular note, 1873:
On the southern plains, slaughter reached its peak. One railroad shipped nearly three million pounds of bones. Hides sold for $1.25 each, tongues brought 25 cents a piece - most of the bison was left to rot. A railway engineer said it was possible to walk '100 miles' along the Santa Fe railroad right-of-way by stepping from one bison carcass to another.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Joe Guy
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by Joe Guy »

Oh give me a home
Where the bison once roamed
And the bears aren't shot dead every day

Where people love birds
And resemble big nerds
They may look it but they are not gay

Home.... Home and deranged...
So we all go to work every day
There are no more herds
Leaving big smelly turds
And we use the computer all day....

wesw
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by wesw »

use our oil in order to remain energy independent until alternative energy can handle the load

yes to pipe line, and I m a tree hugger

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Econoline
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by Econoline »

Wes - You do know, don't you, that (a) the oil in question is not "our" oil but rather belongs to a foreign corporation(TransCanada Corp.); (b) tar sands (bituminous sands) are by far the dirtiest (in terms of pollution) form of petroleum ever; (c) it takes ~30 times as much energy to mine and refine bituminous sands as it does for the same amount of conventional (liquid) crude oil; (d) TransCanada currently uses up (pollutes) between 2 and 4 gallons of groundwater for each gallon of oil produced; and (e) once the tar sands have been strip-mined, liquified, transported across the U.S., and refined, the plan is for most of the end product to be exported--mostly to Asia--at a profit to TransCanada Corporation.

:arg For the life of me, I cannot comprehend how using (and possibly polluting) U.S. land in order to make a profit for a Canadian corporation became a top priority for the GOP. :? :? :? :? :? :shrug
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Lord Jim
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by Lord Jim »

Econo - You do know, don't you, that (a) not just Canadian oil, but also Bakken crude oil from North Dakota (now the second largest oil producing state in the US after Texas) and Montana. (you can be forgiven if you didn't; the press has done a piss poor job of reporting this) (b) arguments about the desirability or tar sand oil are totally irrelevant and completely beside the point as far as the debate over the construction of this pipeline is concerned because preventing the construction of this pipeline won't prevent one single drop of that oil from being extracted; that's a done deal, finis, full stop. (c) The Fiendish Koch brothers will not make one penny more or less based on the construction of this pipeline because they have no financial interest in it. (Thought I'd throw that fact in because I know how much this would worry you and your fellow Koch Heads 8-))
Last edited by Lord Jim on Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Jim
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by Lord Jim »

oh and (d):
Obama says Keystone XL is for exporting oil outside the U.S., experts disagree

President Barack Obama and many other Democrats think there’s little to be gained by building the Keystone XL pipeline.

On Nov. 18, Senate Democrats voted down a proposal to build the oil pipeline -- which would stretch from Canada to Steele City, Neb., where it would connect with an existing pipeline that goes to Texas' coast.. But the issue isn’t going anywhere. When the new Republican-led Senate takes over in January, it will likely be at the top of their priorities list.

Obama and other Keystone critics have argued that the pipeline would have a negative environmental impact, while having little benefit for the United States. For example, constructing the pipeline would result in few permanent American jobs.

"Understand what this project is," Obama said at a Nov. 14 press conference in Burma. "It is providing the ability of Canada to pump their oil, send it through our land, down to the Gulf, where it will be sold everywhere else. That doesn't have an impact on U.S. gas prices."

Two days later, in Brisbane, Australia, Obama described Keystone XL as "a pipeline shipping Canadian oil to world markets, not to the United States."

Predicting the effect of the pipeline on gas prices is a little tricky. Experts tend to agree that it could impact gas prices, but the effect would be indirect and minimal. But in this fact check, we’re going to focus on the export question -- whether or not, as Obama said, Keystone XL’s primary destination is beyond the United States.

We found that Obama’s off the mark.


Crude oil

In recent years, the United States has become a net-exporter of refined oil products, like gasoline, jet fuel and asphalt (meaning it exports more products than it imports), according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration. However, it is a net-importer of the crude oil it uses to make those products.

Keystone XL would transport crude oil from Canada’s tar sands through the Midwestern United States down to the Gulf Coast, and there are refineries all along the proposed route. (The map is from TransCanada, the pipeline operator.)

America gets more crude oil from Canada than any other country. Nearly all of Canada’s exports go to the United States, and this accounts for about a third of America’s total crude oil imports. Much of its oil already makes it to the United States by rail and existing pipelines.

We asked several energy economics experts, and they believe that quite a bit -- if not most -- of the Keystone XL crude oil will be bought and used by American refineries.

"It’s difficult to say with any certainty, but it is most likely that most would be refined in the U.S.," said Kenneth Medlock, an expert in energy economics at Rice University in Texas.

A recent State Department report argues that it would not be "economically justified" for Canada to primarily export its Keystone XL oil to countries other than the United States, when there are plenty of American refineries to consume it.

Some independent refineries -- particularly those in the upper Midwest, but also in Texas -- are in desperate need of crude oil, said Charles Ebinger, a senior fellow in energy security at the Brookings Institution. Currently, the refineries have to import crude from places like Venezuela and Mexico -- though it would be cheaper and better for overall energy security to buy from a North American source, rather than pay high transport costs.

On Nov. 17, TransCanada told Reuters, it "makes no business sense for our customers to transport oil down to the U.S. Gulf Coast, pay to export it overseas but then pay to transport millions of barrels of higher-priced oil back to the U.S. refineries to create the products we rely on."

Ebinger added that many American refineries are geared to use heavy crude, which is what Keystone would transport from Canada’s tar sands.


There would, though, likely be oil coming through the Keystone XL pipeline in excess of what the American refineries would be able to use, noted Eric Smith, an energy economist at Tulane University. This excess oil could go to other countries capable of refining it. Still, most Keystone oil would stay in North America.

Refined products

Some Keystone XL critics have focused on the fact that American refineries could export some of the products they make with the Canadian crude oil, such as gasoline, diesel fuel or asphalt. They argue that because products made in the United States, using Keystone XL oil, will leave the country, the pipeline wouldn’t improve domestic energy security or independence.

Anti-Keystone XL environmental group Tar Sands Action (part of the larger 350.org) said in a Keystone XL fact sheet, that American refineries will process the oil but, "much of the fuel refined from the pipeline’s heavy crude oil will never reach U.S. drivers’ tanks."

However, American oil refineries’ product exports are "not sensitive" to the addition of a new pipeline, the State Department study says. Export trends are more dependent on demand -- both domestically and abroad -- as well as the cost of natural gas and foreign refining capacity. American oil refineries are already increasing their exports, and that trend could continue independent of Keystone XL.

"Refined product export levels have already increased and some of the crude used is from foreign sources," the report says. "As this may already be occurring, it may continue with or without (Keystone XL)."

Further, the report says, "The economic viability of exports does increase the demand for crudes in the United States," but, "this demand does not depend on the proposed project."

Even if exports are increasing, the majority of oil products refined in the United States stay in the United States. For example, in 2013, Gulf Coast area refineries produced about 946,000 barrels of finished motor gasoline per day. They exported about one-third of that -- 323,000 barrels per day.

In January, Our friends at the Washington Post’s Fact Checker looked at an ad by liberal PAC NextGen Climate that said, "(China is) counting on the U.S. to approve TransCanada’s pipeline to ship oil through America’s heartland and out to foreign countries like theirs." A spokesman for NextGen told Fact Checker that they were referring to refined product exports, rather than crude oil. Fact Checker gave the ad its lowest rating of Four Pinocchios.

Even if Keystone XL isn’t built, experts said Canada will find other ways to transport their oil to the United States. Canada already sends crude from the oil sands into the United States by rail and other pipelines.

"I have no doubt that Canada will develop alternate means of monetizing its crude oil, whether that be via expanded rail shipments or by building pipelines to one or both of its coasts," Smith said.

The longer that politicians debate Keystone XL, the more time Canada has to figure out these alternate means.

"Keystone XL is rapidly becoming irrelevant," said Michelle Foss, energy economist at the University of Texas’ Bureau of Economic Geology.

Our ruling

Obama said, Keystone XL allows "Canada to pump their oil, send it through our land, down to the Gulf, where it will be sold everywhere else."

The general consensus among experts, as well as the State Department, is that American refineries would be the primary buyers of crude oil transported through the Keystone XL pipeline, by a vast margin. Some Keystone XL critics have a point that American refineries would likely export some of the products that they make with crude oil transported by the pipeline. The State Department says, however, that product exports are already increasing, and that trend would likely continue independent of a new pipeline. Additionally, American refineries tend to keep more products in the country than they export.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... rts-disag/
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rubato
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by rubato »

"... The general consensus among experts, as well as the State Department, is that American refineries would be the primary buyers of crude oil transported through the Keystone XL pipeline, by a vast margin. Some Keystone XL critics have a point that American refineries would likely export some of the products that they make with crude oil transported by the pipeline. The State Department says, however, that product exports are already increasing, and that trend would likely continue independent of a new pipeline. Additionally, American refineries tend to keep more products in the country than they export. ... "
In other words essentially all of it will be exported and the experts agree on this since the domestic market is saturated.

yrs,
rubato

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

American refineries tend to keep more products in the country than they export
In other words essentially all of it will be exported

This section of the paper requires that you write an essay comparing and contrasting the two statements above. Favorable consideration will be given to those who do research by making a list of all of the ways the two subjects are similar and different. You'll need to figure out exactly how much they have in common and how different they really are. Make a Venn Diagram of the two subjects and write the similarities in the part of the intersecting circles, while writing the differences in the parts of each subject's circle that does not intersect with other. You may commence writing now.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

wesw
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by wesw »

I know that a pipeline from Canada to the gulf can have oil added or subtracted at any point we choose. what s wrong with working with Canada anyway?

wesw
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by wesw »

I could even go cut a hole and weld in a junction point if they really needed me to....

wesw
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by wesw »

I also believe that alternative energy is the future and that this will allow us to transition on our terms.

not happy about the tar sands pollution but life is full of hard choices

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Lord Jim
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by Lord Jim »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
American refineries tend to keep more products in the country than they export
In other words essentially all of it will be exported

This section of the paper requires that you write an essay comparing and contrasting the two statements above. Favorable consideration will be given to those who do research by making a list of all of the ways the two subjects are similar and different. You'll need to figure out exactly how much they have in common and how different they really are. Make a Venn Diagram of the two subjects and write the similarities in the part of the intersecting circles, while writing the differences in the parts of each subject's circle that does not intersect with other. You may commence writing now.

Man, I hate these tough assignments...
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Lord Jim
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by Lord Jim »

Wes:

I don't care what you put in your posts. I don't care if you use apostrophes or not, I don't care about spelling or grammar...

Hell, you can copy and paste every letter from a different magazine article like a serial killer as far as I'm concerned...

But this multiple, one sentence posting is just plain rude and inconsiderate, and shows a complete lack of regard for your fellow posters. It's a form of trolling. There's absolutely no excuse for it.

You were getting better about it, but now you seem to be backsliding big time. I (and others) have tried to be nice about it, and also to be helpful in an effort to get you to cut it out.

Now I have to tell you that I for one am fed up with it. If you don't cut it out, I'm going to have to put you on ignore; it's that annoying.

I'm not interested in hearing any more excuses or justifications for it. It's just damn inconsiderate, period.
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wesw
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by wesw »

jim, you post in succession more often than anyone but me. get over it.

wesw
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by wesw »

and you didn t try really hard to be nice about it either....

wesw
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by wesw »

...and the cursing matches with rubato annoy me, but we all make our own choices and we are who we are, unless we change.

why does it bother you anyway? do you get an e mail with each post, like some people at cartalk? if so you might want to change that (italics) if it bothers you

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Lord Jim
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by Lord Jim »

jim, you post in succession more often than anyone but me. get over it.
Not one sentence posts one minute apart; sorry you don't see the difference.
and you didn't try really hard to be nice about it either....
Oh yes I did; go back and review the record. (Oh wait, I forgot; you can't be bothered to learn how to do that.)

In any event, I can see from your responses that you have no intention of stopping this trollish behavior. Ignore it is then.
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wesw
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by wesw »

well I m not attempting to be trollish, I m just being myself. sometimes I ll post a long, well thought out post, other times I just let it fly.

now, I (italics) consider your rube baiting, and his of you, to be trollish.

motes and beams and eyes and all all that, if you get my point?

rubato
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by rubato »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:
American refineries tend to keep more products in the country than they export
In other words essentially all of it will be exported

This section of the paper requires that you write an essay comparing and contrasting the two statements above. Favorable consideration will be given to those who do research by making a list of all of the ways the two subjects are similar and different. You'll need to figure out exactly how much they have in common and how different they really are. Make a Venn Diagram of the two subjects and write the similarities in the part of the intersecting circles, while writing the differences in the parts of each subject's circle that does not intersect with other. You may commence writing now.

How fucking stupid are you?

When the domestic market is saturated where does the next barrel of refined gas go?
American refineries tend to keep more products in the country than they export
Tend? tend? What the fuck asshole stupid are you? They TEND to sell their products on the open market and when the domestic market is <<replete>> they TEND to sell everything else internationally. That is why we have TENDED to export refined fuel products for several years now.

Holy goddamn shit. You really are inane.


yrs,
rubato

wesw
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Re: "Now That the Buffalo's Gone"

Post by wesw »

thanks rube. see jim? none of us are perfect, especially not me. if you expect me to toe every line someone draws you will be disappointed.

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