The politician vs the pop singer.

[Gob]

Yes, there you have it. You do understand. The Labour pol who posted the picture of the ENGLISH flag, was underlining an association with what she despises as nativist right-wring, ignorant, UKIPian, soccer-thuggian, anti-Labour, anti-Liberal, anti-left, anti-thinking etc. people who probably shouldn't be allowed to live, let alone vote.

She would never have posted a photo of the British flag with political intent - unless it was flying over a house with 17 Moslems, 3 Pakistanis, 2 Scotsmen and a sprinkling of the right kind of Africans to show how inclusive "Britain" is.

She knew the point she was making. So did her boss. So did almost all of England.

UKIP won the election. I hope it's the beginning of a true rightist movement to correct the liberal rot that's ruining England for all its citizens

Meade nails it!

[Crackpot]

It's kind of funny to me the way so many Liberals have a blind spot about this...(It's probably derivative from the same blind spot that makes it so difficult for many Liberals to see anyone on their side as less than completely noble and virtuous)

Unless you happen to be disturbing their peace while they are patronizing a Public place.

[Gob]

A topical joke by Tory whip Greg Hands was repeated with glee in Westminster yesterday. He said: ‘When I saw the photo of Emily Thornberry’s house in Islington, I imagined she must have resigned over Miliband’s mansion tax, rather than a tweet.’

Call it a cheap shot, if you wish. But it was a good one. For few Labour frontbenchers embodied the poisonous mixture of hypocrisy and elitism at the heart of the Miliband machine quite so perfectly as Ms Thornberry. This wealthy barrister, who (as consort to the Radley and Oxford-educated judge Sir Christopher Nugee) is properly known as ‘Lady Nugee’, enjoys a rarefied existence beyond the wildest dreams of the working- class voters her party purports to represent.

Home is a vast, four-storey Victorian townhouse in an exclusive North London crescent beloved of lawyers and bankers, where a similar property changed hands earlier this year for £2.9 million — £900,000 above the threshold for Labour’s planned ‘soak-the-rich’ mansion tax. She and Sir Christopher, a barrister at Wilberforce Chambers whose specialities included the lucrative — if controversial — field of off-shore trusts (which, among other things, help rich people avoid taxes), bought the property in 1993, two years after they married.

More evidence that, under Ed Miliband’s leadership, the current Labour party shamefully fails to connect with, or comprehend, its traditional supporters.

Back in 2005, for example, when Thornberry was seeking election for the first time in Islington South and Finsbury, it was revealed that she had decided to snub the many inner-city comprehensive schools near her home in order to send her children to Dame Alice Owen’s, a partially-selective state school. The school has some of the best GCSE results in the country — but is situated some 13 miles away from Islington, in leafy Potter’s Bar in Hertfordshire.‘I celebrate her good sense as a parent and deplore her hypocrisy as a politician,’ commented Chris Woodhead, the former Chief Inspector of Schools. ‘When will those who espouse the virtues of comprehensive education apply the logic of their political message to their children?’

Two years later, it was revealed that despite having repeatedly campaigned for more social housing to be provided in her constituency, Thornberry had used a spare £572,000 to buy a property in Clerkenwell from a housing association. She was then letting the terraced home on the private market.

She also owns a £600,000 flat in Guildford, Surrey, which she says she bought for her mother in 2000 to ‘free’ her council house for a family. It is rented out, and while she has refused to reveal her income from the property, another flat in the building has a ‘rental value’ of £3,000 a month.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Tony Benn must be turning in his pauper's grave

[wesw]

yes! yes ! yes !

I believe that most of us are patriots and believe in our founding ideals. that is why we should not try to destroy the loyal opposition.

portraying each other as evil or stupid is going to hurt everyone,

disagree by all means! but sit down and break bread at the end of the day.

...and if the woman in question represents bitter old white men, sign me up!

[BoSoxGal]

People on the left looking down scornfully, derisively, and condescendingly towards working class conservatives is pretty much an impossible to miss phenomena in this country...

Anyone who prattles condescending twaddle about people "voting against their own interests" (which is blatant code for "they're too stupid and/or ignorant to know what's best for them") is engaging in it...

It's an inescapable part of reality in this country. And it's also largely responsible for the popularity of people like O'Reilly, Hannity, etc.

I'm very left, and I believe that many folks vote against their interests because they don't understand the complexity of various forces at work in our political system, which doesn't mean they are too stupid - but ignorant? Yes, there is no shame in ignorance and many more folks are ignorant about these things than are not.

Most of my friends here in this rural Montana community are working class conservatives, and sometimes I hear them say things that make me cringe - like when they call Obama a nigger like it's no big deal - but I'm able to recognize that they are good-hearted people who are a product of their upbringing and the current ugly political climate and I don't condescend to them, I don't look down on them with scorn or derision. They are people who would give me the shirt off their backs if I needed it, and they know I would help them with any problem that comes their way in this life that requires a lawyer.

LJ, I think you have a good heart, too - but damn, sometimes you act like you don't and you say things that are terrible and you can be really mean to others of us for what seems like no other reason than that you get off on it.

[Lord Jim]

I believe that many folks vote against their interests because they don't understand the complexity of various forces at work in our political system,

You don't see how that's condescending?

Karen Finney, a Liberal Democrat if ever there was one, (she had a show on MSNBC for a while and at one time was under serious consideration to be Obama's new press secretary) hit the nail on the head a few months ago chiding her fellow Liberals for using this "they vote against their own interests" formulation.

She made the point that the voters they're talking about don't vote against their own interests, they just define their interests differently than many of her Liberal friends thought they should. These voters, Finney said voted their "values"; to them candidates who supported values they felt were important was more important than their narrow financial interests.

Finney gets it, but a lot of Liberals think anyone who doesn't vote for the candidate who promises to take the most money away from other people and either give it to them or spend it on them is "Voting against their interests".

What they don't seem to understand, is that many people don't see that as the most important factor when determining what their "best interest" is. (Or even any factor at all.) They have ways of determining "their best interest", and criteria that they use, that goes beyond simple economic determinism.

[Gob]

At a gathering of local communist notables, somewhere in the vast Soviet hinterland

"I want us all to raise a glass to Vladimir Petrovich (the local party pasha and nabob), - not because he has the latest model of Zil limousine driven by a polite and respectful chaufeur - because, thank God, none of us is forced to fight our way onto the tram every dark, snowy morning.

Not because he has 2 mistresses as well as a lovely wife and beautiful children looked after by Uzbek maids, because, the lord be praised, none of us is compelled to sleep alone and without delightful female companionship.

Not because he has a 5 bedroom apartment in the best part of town, with old oak furniture imported from the West and all the latest electronic gadgets from Japan and a charming dasha in the birch forrests, because due to divine beneficence, none of us has to live in one room in a squalid communal flat in a concrete tower"

"No, I want to drink to Vladimir Petrovich because he is A TRUE COMMUNIST!"

[wesw]

jim has hit on a truth. I have to look out for finances to a degree, but I really don t like or desire money, never have.

to me, anyone who votes solely to improve their finances is making a huge mistake

[BoSoxGal]

I believe that many folks vote against their interests because they don't understand the complexity of various forces at work in our political system,

You don't see how that's condescending?

Karen Finney, a Liberal Democrat if ever there was one, (she had a show on MSNBC for a while and at one time was under serious consideration to be Obama's new press secretary) hit the nail on the head a few months ago chiding her fellow Liberals for using this "they vote against their own interests" formulation.

She made the point that the voters they're talking about don't vote against their own interests, they just define their interests differently than many of her Liberal friends thought they should. These voters, Finney said voted their "values"; to them candidates who supported values they felt were important was more important than their narrow financial interests.

Finney gets it, but a lot of Liberals think anyone who doesn't vote for the candidate who takes the most money away from other people and either gives it to them or spends it on them is "Voting against their interests".

What they don't seem to understand, is that many people don't see that as the most important factor when determining what their "best interest" is. (Or even any factor at all.) They have ways of determining "their best interest", and criteria that they use, that goes beyond simple economic determinism.

No, Jim, I'm capable of more complex thinking than you are giving me credit for, thanks.

The working class conservatives I know here in Montana - yes, they care about their gun rights, they care about wishing they had a white president who is not from Kenya and is actually an American citizen, they care about the widespread murder of babies in the womb, yadda yadda yadda - but the thing they bitch about most regularly is the condition of their own wallets, and their children's wallets, and they don't seem to see the obvious historical connection between Democrats and economic growth, job gains, etc. and Republicans and the opposite. They, like many Americans on the left, buy soundbites from biased news sources as reality, without engaging in any more complex thinking or self-education about the forces that actually shape their lives.

But it's nice that you admit that when it comes to economic determinism, the left is the better choice for the American people - you just seem to think that many of the American people care about other things more than their economic well-being.

That seems very unrealistic to me, but I won't argue your right to believe it. I'm just telling you, it's not correct in my direct experience of working class conservatives, and I was raised by one, so my personal, intimate experience stretches back 44 years as of today - and because I've chosen to live in rural places much of my adult life, it has been, if anything, very much broadened in recent years.

[wesw]

dudette, Montana s working class conservatives are not typical of the rest of the nations. in the south (the lower shore is still southern) we are very familiar with black folks. we know that they have as many intelligent hard working people in their population as white folks (we all have a black person in our family). a black man could get votes.

my aunt went to Montana after college to do geological surveys. she brought home a nice young, tall, blonde fellow. nice guy, from somewhere in the rural billings general area,not terribly racist or anything, but he didn t know any black people. maybe one guy he said.

you are right about the lack of knowledge of political intricacies , but our system does not really seem too worried about getting them involved and informed anyway, especially politicians on the left. they and we care about far more than money

just my opinion,
wes

ps- the people I knew in Plymouth, mass. seemed far more racist than the people I grew up with...
wes

[Gob]

dudette, Montana s working class conservatives are not typical of the rest of the nations. in the south (the lower shore is still southern) we are very familiar with black folks. we know that they have as many intelligent hard working people in their population as white folks (we all have a black person in our family).

[wesw]

that s funny!

[BoSoxGal]

dudette, Montana s working class conservatives are not typical of the rest of the nations. in the south (the lower shore is still southern) we are very familiar with black folks. we know that they have as many intelligent hard working people in their population as white folks (we all have a black person in our family). a black man could get votes.

my aunt went to Montana after college to do geological surveys. she brought home a nice young, tall, blonde fellow. nice guy, from somewhere in the rural billings general area,not terribly racist or anything, but he didn t know any black people. maybe one guy he said.

you are right about the lack of knowledge of political intricacies , but our system does not really seem too worried about getting them involved and informed anyway, especially politicians on the left. they and we care about far more than money

just my opinion,
wes

ps- the people I knew in Plymouth, mass. seemed far more racist than the people I grew up with...
wes

wes, this is not the only place I've lived.

This is my geographic life dance:

Massachusetts > Arizona > Maine > Washington, D.C. > Maine > Arizona > Massachusetts > Montana

And in my travels and various homes, I've largely gravitated toward working class folks because that's how I was raised. In D.C. I met some very wealthy and very entitled people both at Georgetown and in my social activities, but my 3 best friends from law school are all from the working class.

I've known working class conservatives from rural and urban Maine, Massachusetts, Arizona, Montana, California and D.C. (there are some, and some of them are even black!). I think I have a pretty broad knowledge base in this regard.

[wesw]

perhaps so....

I just get the feeling that you are more familiar with lower middle class folks than you are with the working poor. we are people too.

we aren t all un educated and un informed either. we can understand the truth and make our own decisions if we get accurate info

ps-immigration has hurt us financially too, so on that, expect us tovote with our pocket book, though some would paint us as racist

[Crackpot]

How many times do I have to say! I'm not condescending to you knuckle draggers!

[Lord Jim]

But it's nice that you admit that when it comes to economic determinism, the left is the better choice for the American people

That of course isn't what I said, what I said was:

a lot of Liberals think anyone who doesn't vote for the candidate who takes the most money away from other people and either gives it to them or spends it on them is "Voting against their interests".

Which is an entirely different thing from:

the obvious historical connection between Democrats and economic growth, job gains, etc. and Republicans and the opposite.

That's not obvious at all, (take a look at the 1980s versus the Carter years...And of course in the 90's the economy really started to take off after Clinton began working with the GOP Congress post '94) but I won't argue your right to believe it....

Especially on your birthday...

[wesw]

I m sure some one has a graph that will show that americans are leaving the two main parties in increasing numbers....

[BoSoxGal]

wes, for almost 20 years I've been working with the poor, and in the process of working with them, I've befriended many. For many years before that, I volunteered with the poor - since junior high school, in fact.

And as I said before, I was raised blue collar working class - i.e., one paycheck from financial devastation. I am only the second person in my entire family to complete a college education, & I have lived my entire adult life in exactly those same circumstances - one paycheck from financial devastation. The only thing distinguishing me from the poor folks I've worked with - and on behalf of - is the fact that I have a professional license which presumably gives me somewhat better opportunities to keep my nose above water.

However, if you've followed the legal job market at all since the Great Recession, you'd know that there are many unemployed attorneys - those who once had jobs, and those who have never found one (as a lawyer) since earning a JD. The notion that all lawyers are well-to-do is very far from reality.

As for myself, I learned all too well the precariousness of even a top tier law school education when I found myself unemployed and living out of my car for nearly a year in 2009. Had I not had many dear friends and family willing to let me sofa/spare room surf, I would have spent many months actually living in my car. As it was, I spent the equivalent of a month actually living in my car, during times when I was between stops and couldn't afford anything other than to sleep in my vehicle, waiting for the next UI check to deposit and give me gas money to get to the next friend's home town/city. I know how to stay reasonably clean using only the facilities available in a truck stop bathroom - not having the trucker's access to actual showers.

I have actual first hand knowledge of poor, my own and of many other folks'.


Thanks for making assumptions about me instead of just asking, though.

[wesw]

I said perhaps and I have a feeling, I made no firm assumptions.

I think I remember you saying you did not have much experience with street level black people once, maybe I remember incorrectly. I hope you make a go of your practice. you seem like a caring person who wants to do good. obviously you aren t rich and pampered. I did not mean to imply otherwise.

poverty I m familiar with, black people I m familiar with, so I hope I can provide a perspective that may not be represented here. I try to qualify statements I m not sure are correct. sometimes I fail to do so, sometimes the qualification is over looked.

I was only trying to present my perspective.