Ferguson Riot Watch...

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Lord Jim
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by Lord Jim »

Most excellent post Gen'l; I agree with every word... :clap:

And I would add that the fact of enduring problems between law enforcement and minority communities doesn't mean that we take a person in a specific case and impose punishment on them to somehow make them "pay" for these collective grievances, the facts of that specific case be damned. Which is what I get the uncomfortable feeling some folks wanted to see.
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Jarlaxle
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by Jarlaxle »

rubato wrote:This is what happens when you ignore "fairness" and differential compensation. This is what happens when the structure of government is allowed to be corrupted and become systematically oppressive on one disadvantaged group for decades.

This isn't a surprise.


yrs,
rubato
No, this is what happens when the decision is made to let packs of feral thugs run wild.
Treat Gaza like Carthage.

Big RR
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by Big RR »

Meade--I'll defer discussing the Grand Jury's findings as I have not seen all the evidence and they (at least reportedly) have. However, he anger and frustration is not confined to this single incident, but to a general feeling that there is no justice for a certain segment of society--a segment which is then moved to strike back as best they can--smashing, looting, burning, etc. It is the reasoning that they will seek to bring down their oppressors and all who profit from the system that oppresses them. Logical? No. Defensible? Not entirely. But surely understandable.

Indeed, how many of us wouldn't do the same if they felt the system was tilted against us? I recall the bussing school boycotts when I lived in Brooklyn, and hearing my mother called a "bitch" for daring to walk me to school and cross the picket lines set up because the boycotters didn't want their precious kids sent to the "bad" schools in the name of integration. I even recall some smashed windows and other violence by the crowds (I don't know about looting, but the property of some was damaged/destroyed). And this was just an incident where the government sought to remove a single privilege from the entitled; imagine what it would be like to always be on the bottom and to think, no matter what you do, you will always remain there.

Rightly or wrongly, that's what many of those rioting think, and we ignore that at our peril. We need to find a way to work together and address it. Otherwise, we will end up with many riots and/orsurrendering our civil liberties to live in an armed camp.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by Lord Jim »

However, he anger and frustration is not confined to this single incident, but to a general feeling that there is no justice for a certain segment of society
Yes but that's not an excuse to indict Darren Wilson if under the law, the evidence did not support an indictment.

Big RR, maybe you or one of our other legal types here can answer a question:

Are the members of the Grand Jury now free to speak publicly about the proceedings, just as the members of a trial jury would be? I've seen contradictory assertions on this point. It's been reported that the vote on the indictment won't be made public, but if the Jurors are allowed to speak publicly about this, it seems that will inevitably come out.

The explanation I'm hearing for the timing of this announcement involves trying to minimize disruption to school schedules and traffic. If that's the case, I think it's a pretty piss poor excuse. It's Thanksgiving week fercristsake, if the kids got an extra couple of days off, that certainly wouldn't have been the end of the world, and traffic is undoubtedly a lot lighter than it would be normally.

Kids getting a couple of extra days off and traffic inconvenience seems like a small price to pay to have avoided the worst of the wanton destruction that took place last night. There are people who might still have their businesses today rather than standing over piles of smoldering ruble if they had not timed the announcement of this the way they did.
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Big RR
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by Big RR »

Jim--I agree that a person should never be indicted, other than for sufficient evidence; politics should not play into it (although it does many times).

As for the members of the grand jury speaking out publicly, I am not certain but believe the proceedings are supposed to be kept confidential because there is always the possibility that another Grand Jury could be convened to investigate the entire matter again. Because of this, I would think the grand jurors are subject to a confidentiality order--does anyone know for certain?

In the instant situation, I would think that it would be imprudent for the grand jurors to speak out as it would identify them to the community and might subject them to reprisals from some. Right now the identity of the grand jurors in this case is being kept confidential.

rubato
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by rubato »

slipped finger

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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by wesw »

I think putin s the one standing over the smoldering ruble....

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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

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For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Lord Jim
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by Lord Jim »

Gee Meade you must be slippin'...

It's not like you to let somebody else beat you to spotting a typo...
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Not with you there, LJ. Mine was an editorial - not a corrective
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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Scooter
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by Scooter »

"The dildo of consequence rarely comes lubed." -- Eileen Rose

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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

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From Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_juri ... ted_States
According to the American Bar Association (ABA), the grand jury has come under increasing criticism for being a mere "rubber stamp" for the prosecution without adequate procedural safeguards. Critics argue that the grand jury has largely lost its historic role as an independent bulwark protecting citizens from unfounded accusations by the government.[48] Grand juries provide little protection to accused suspects and are much more useful to prosecutors. Grand juries have such broad subpoena power that they can investigate alleged crimes very thoroughly and often assist the prosecutor in his job. Grand juries sometimes compel witnesses to testify without the presence of their attorneys. Evidence uncovered during the grand jury investigation can be used by the prosecutor in a later trial. Grand jurors also often lack the ability and knowledge to judge sophisticated cases and complicated federal laws. This puts them at the mercy of very well trained and experienced federal prosecutors. Grand jurors often hear only the prosecutor's side of the case and are usually persuaded by them. Grand juries almost always indict people on the prosecutor's recommendation.[49] A chief judge of New York State’s highest court, Sol Wachtler, once said that grand juries were so pliable that a prosecutor could get a grand jury to “indict a ham sandwich.”[50] And William J. Campbell, a former federal district judge in Chicago, noted: “[T]oday, the grand jury is the total captive of the prosecutor who, if he is candid, will concede that he can indict anybody, at any time, for almost anything, before any grand jury.”[51]
If a prosecutor wants the grand jury to indict, it will indict. If a prosecutor doesn't want the grand jury to indict, it will not indict. This is the case, I would assert, 99% of the time - and everybody who practices criminal law in states that utilize the grand jury, or in the federal court system, knows it.

The prosecutor decided that Wilson would not be charged; the grand jury was irrelevant and it is laughable to argue otherwise.
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BoSoxGal
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

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Big RR wrote:Jim--I agree that a person should never be indicted, other than for sufficient evidence; politics should not play into it (although it does many times).

As for the members of the grand jury speaking out publicly, I am not certain but believe the proceedings are supposed to be kept confidential because there is always the possibility that another Grand Jury could be convened to investigate the entire matter again. Because of this, I would think the grand jurors are subject to a confidentiality order--does anyone know for certain?

In the instant situation, I would think that it would be imprudent for the grand jurors to speak out as it would identify them to the community and might subject them to reprisals from some. Right now the identity of the grand jurors in this case is being kept confidential.
The federal system has a secrecy mandate that does not extend to the states, but I believe that many states probably do hold the jurors themselves to secrecy. The transcripts of certain witness testimony before the grand jury can be released and/or are mandated released in some state jurisdictions; in the federal system, the records are generally sealed.

I quoted Wiki because it's an easy resource and reader-friendly, but just to clarify, I'm a long-time criminal law buff who reads a shit ton about these issues both historically and in present-day terms. I've been subscribing to the American Criminal Law Review since I was a student at Georgetown.
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by liberty »

As I understand it property insurance does not cover riots, so the people whose businesses were burned are just out of luck; in some cases people have lost their entire life savings as all of their money was tied up in their business. I an sure that is the case some where. So, should the state reimbursed these people for the value of their property since the state failed to protect it?
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Joe Guy
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by Joe Guy »

Should the state reimburse everyone who is a crime victim?

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BoSoxGal
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by BoSoxGal »

Most states - including Missouri - have crime victims' compensation funds; however, those funds are limited to $25,000 per victim and don't cover stolen or damaged/destroyed property.

Such funds are generally meant for victims of physical or psychological injury, to address various costs associated with said victimization. For example, a few weeks ago I sentenced a rapist whose victim was impregnated and bore twins from the criminal act. Victims' compensation covered numerous out-of-pocket expenses not covered by her health insurance; she was also awarded $36,000 in restitution which she is unlikely to see much of, given the perpetrator is a deadbeat and is unlikely to ever earn enough income over and above his child support obligation to actually make meaningful payments toward that restitution. But, if he ever wins the lottery . . .

I don't know if the Governor's declaration of a state of emergency will include any provision for alternative sources of funds to assist rebuilding by business owners whose own insurance won't cover losses incurred by the rioting.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

In the "wouldn't you just know it" department - there's this: "I'm the only one that didn’t burn," said Dan McMullen, who has owned an insurance company in the Ferguson area for 20 years. "The buildings to the right and left of me burned down. The beauty shop to the left of me is totally flat. It's a 60-year old building made out of concrete and metal."

I see the insurance experts here have been busy dealing with denial of coverage. :nana Insurance companies sell BOPs (business owner) which cover riot damage to commercial buildings.
August 26, 2014

Missouri Department of Insurance to be in Ferguson Wednesday (Aug. 27) to help businesses with insurance needs

Department representatives will assist businesses filing insurance claims and answer questions about the claims process

Jefferson City, Mo. - The Missouri Department of Insurance is working with business owners in Ferguson who sustained property damage to file claims. Representatives from the department will be on-site in Ferguson on Wednesday to visit impacted business owners and answer insurance questions. Policyholders can schedule an appointment to meet with a department representative by calling 800-726-7390.

"We are encouraging owners of damaged businesses to contact their insurance agent or company now, if they haven't done so already," said department Director John M. Huff. "We're coming to Ferguson this week to follow up with policyholders to make sure they're getting what they need from their insurance carriers so that the community can move forward with its recovery."

If businesses have already attempted to file a claim with their insurance company, but have not heard from an adjuster yet, policyholders can contact the department's Insurance Consumer Hotline at 800-726-7390 or visit insurance.mo.gov.

The department is also working with the Recovery St. Louis Coalition to disseminate information to impacted business owners. The coalition can be reached at 314-206-3235 or at [email protected].

The Department of Insurance offers these tips for impacted business owners:
•Contact your insurance agent's or company's toll-free claims number as soon as possible.
•If you have lost your company's contact information, the department may be able to help you locate it. Contact the department at insurance.mo.gov or by calling 800-726-7390.
•If your business suffered physical damage, make temporary repairs to prevent further damage. For example, a broken window should be boarded up to keep out rain. Otherwise, further damage will likely not be covered by your insurance policy. Keep the receipts for materials you buy so you can be reimbursed.
•If your business suffered a financial loss because it was forced to close, ask if your policy includes business income coverage.
•If you file a business income claim, you will need business records to prove the amount of your financial loss. Some records you may be asked for: ◦Historical sales records.
◦Income and expense information and income tax forms.
◦Receipts/records for damaged inventory, including photographs.
◦Other records or data to project what your business would have made during its closure.
◦Make sure you keep receipts and records for any costs you incur to produce or reproduce these financial records. These expenses may be covered under the "extra expense" coverage.

•If you believe your insurance company has not handled your claim properly, file a complaint with the department. The department will determine whether your insurance company has followed Missouri law in processing your claim.

Business owners can refer to the department's "Small Business Insurance" Web page, which offers information on commercial property, business interruption insurance and more.
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Lord Jim
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by Lord Jim »

The prosecutor decided that Wilson would not be charged;
Clearly the prosecutor did not believe the evidence justified an indictment. He didn't really do anything to conceal that; he publicly acknowledged that in presenting the evidence to the Grand Jury that he wasn't making any recommendation to them on whether or not to indict.

Normally when a prosecutor doesn't believe the evidence merits an indictment, he doesn't take the case to a Grand Jury; he simply uses his prosecutorial discretion not to file charges.

However this was anything but a normal case. Because of the enormous political dimensions, the ongoing community unrest, and the 24/7 media circus, Mr. McCulloch (who is after all an elected official, and thus a politician) decided he wasn't going to make himself the last word in the matter so he made the decision to present all of the evidence, (not just evidence that might support an indictment) to the Grand Jury for a decision.

(BTW, for anyone who thinks for whatever reason that McCulloch shouldn't have been the DA in this case, I would point out that very early on, he publicly asked that if Gov. Nixon wanted to take the case away from him and appoint a special prosecutor, he should do it. Nixon chose not to do so.)

Using the Grand Jury process in this way is unusual, (again, this is an unusual case) but it's not unprecedented. And one can certainly argue that by not taking an advocacy position for a charge and presenting only evidence that supported it, that MuCulloch was certainly making an indictment much less likely. (That would seem quite logical to me.)

But all of that still doesn't equate to the Grand Jury being "irrelevant". Once again, this wasn't a normal case. The members of the Grand Jury weren't sequestered; they knew full well how emotionally charged this was, and could certainly have been intimidated out of fear for violence in the community, (or even for their own personal safety) into voting for an indictment, even though the DA wasn't taking an advocacy position for it. They certainly had the power to do so. (I think it's to their credit that they didn't allow this to effect their judgment)

The unusual nature of this case is also why the complete transcripts of the Grand Jury proceedings have been released, something else that isn't usually done.

Here's a NY Times article with some opposing views from legal experts on the way McCulloch decided to handle this:
A day after the St. Louis County prosecutor took the rare step of releasing thousands of pages of grand jury testimony in the Michael Brown case, his move prompted a sharp debate among legal experts, some of whom charged that what looked like the prosecutor’s transparency and neutrality cloaked his real goal — to ensure that no indictment of the police officer occurred.

“It looks like he wanted to create the appearance that there had been a public trial when in fact there hadn’t been,” Noah Feldman, who teaches constitutional law at Harvard, said by telephone on Tuesday. The impression that was left, Mr. Feldman added, “was that the prosecutor didn’t want an indictment — and didn’t want to blamed for not getting one.”

Normally, a grand jury is led forcefully and selectively by a prosecutor seeking an indictment, but in this case, the prosecutor, Robert P. McCulloch, made it clear from the beginning that his office would present everything to the grand jurors, including contradictory evidence, regarding the officer who killed Mr. Brown, Darren Wilson.

And even if the grand jury declined to return an indictment, Mr. McCulloch had said, his office would take the highly unusual step of releasing publicly everything that had been presented in the confidential grand jury proceedings.

“That is as transparent as we can get, short of putting a pool TV camera in here, and that’s not going to happen,” Mr. McCulloch told the grand jurors when he met with them at the start of their inquiry on Aug. 20, according to the transcript of the proceeding.

But by taking a stand of apparent neutrality, the critics argued, Mr. McCulloch was really steering the jurors away from an indictment.

On Monday, after the grand jury voted against bringing charges, Mr. McCulloch released thousands of pages of testimony as well as exhibits and photographs that the jurors had reviewed, and scholars, prosecutors and columnists began wading through them — with mixed reactions.

William Fitzpatrick, the longtime district attorney in Syracuse and president-elect of the National District Attorneys Association, said grand juries were usually asked to consider cases after the police had found probable cause to make an arrest, and in such instances, if he agreed an arrest was justified, his office would present a case in support of bringing charges.

In Mr. Brown’s death, in which no arrest of Officer Wilson had been made, “it absolutely should have been a neutral presentation,” Mr. Fitzpatrick said.


He added that under New York law, he would be prevented from releasing grand jury materials as Mr. McCullough had.

Mr. Fitzpatrick said Mr. McCulloch’s decision to release the grand jury materials, which Mr. McCullough had concluded was legal under Missouri law, “was a good decision.” And he endorsed the St. Louis County prosecutor’s approach to presenting the evidence before the grand jury.

But a critic, Jeffrey Toobin, in a post on the New Yorker website on Tuesday, suggested that Mr. McCullough’s air of neutrality was a ruse. “There is little doubt that he remained largely in control of the process; aggressive advocacy by prosecutors could have persuaded the grand jurors to vote for some kind of indictment,” Mr. Toobin wrote.

Grand jury investigations are typically kept confidential for reasons like protecting the privacy of individuals who might be under scrutiny but who are ultimately not charged, or to maintain the integrity of a continuing investigation. Mr. McCulloch’s office, in releasing the grand jury transcript, took steps to redact the names of witnesses before the document was made public.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/26/us/mi ... .html?_r=0
Last edited by Lord Jim on Thu Nov 27, 2014 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014 ... .html?_r=0

Excellent NY Times article. Once again, facts are so much more interesting than speculation and generalizations.


Here's the link to all the information released from the grand jury deliberations

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014 ... -case.html
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Lord Jim
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Re: Ferguson Riot Watch...

Post by Lord Jim »

That is a FANTASTIC article Gen'l. Absolute must reading for anybody interested in this case. Very well laid out.

Two points taken from that article:
Examiners found Mr. Brown’s blood or other DNA outside the driver’s door, outside the left rear passenger door, inside the driver’s door, on the upper left thigh of Officer Wilson’s pants and on Officer Wilson’s shirt and weapon.
Mr. Brown’s body was about 153 feet east of Officer Wilson’s car. Mr. Brown’s blood was about 25 feet east of his body. This evidence supports statements that Mr. Brown continued to move closer to the officer after being hit by an initial string of bullets.
This goes to the two key elements of this:

1.The forensic and ballistic evidence fully supports Wilson's claim that Brown was attempting to get at his gun while he (Wilson) was seated in the patrol car when the first shots were fired.

2.That contrary to some "eye witness" claims, Brown was coming towards Wilson while the additional shots were fired, not simply going down to his knees with his hands up in surrender.
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