Politics versus the Environment.

Right? Left? Centre?
Political news and debate.
Put your views and articles up for debate and destruction!
rubato
Posts: 14245
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 10:14 pm

Politics versus the Environment.

Post by rubato »

Paul Krugman: Pollution and Politics

Why and when did Republicans become anti-environmentalists?:

Pollution and Politics, by Paul Krugman, Commentary, NY Times: Earlier this week, the Environmental Protection Agency announced proposed regulations to curb emissions of ozone, which causes smog, not to mention asthma, heart disease and premature death. And you know what happened: Republicans went on the attack, claiming that the new rules would impose enormous costs.

There’s no reason to take these complaints seriously... Polluters and their political friends have a track record of crying wolf. ... Again and again, the actual costs have been far lower than they predicted. In fact, almost always below the E.P.A.’s predictions.

So it’s the same old story. But why, exactly, does it always play this way? ... When and why did the Republican Party become the party of pollution?

For it wasn’t always thus. The Clean Air Act of 1970 ... was signed into law by Richard Nixon. (I’ve heard veterans of the E.P.A. describe the Nixon years as a golden age.) A major amendment of the law, which among other things made possible the cap-and-trade system that limits acid rain, was signed in 1990 by former President George H.W. Bush.

But that was then. Today’s Republican Party is putting a conspiracy theorist who views climate science as a “gigantic hoax” in charge of the Senate’s environment committee. And this isn’t an isolated case. ...

So what explains this anti-environmental shift?

You might be tempted simply to blame money in politics... But this doesn’t explain why money from the most environmentally damaging industries, which used to flow to both parties, now goes overwhelmingly in one direction. ...

One answer could be ideology... My guess, however, is that ideology is only part of the story — or, more accurately, it’s a symptom of the underlying cause...: rising inequality. ... Any policy that benefits lower- and middle-income Americans at the expense of the elite — like health reform, which guarantees insurance to all and pays for that guarantee in part with taxes on higher incomes — will face bitter Republican opposition.

And environmental protection is, in part, a class issue,... ownership of, say, stock in coal companies is concentrated in a few, wealthy hands. ...

In the case of the new ozone plan, the E.P.A.’s analysis suggests that, for the average American, the benefits would be more than twice the costs. But that doesn’t necessarily matter to the nonaverage American driving one party’s priorities. On ozone, as with almost everything these days, it’s all about inequality.

Why do the Republicans hate us all so much?

yrs,
rubato

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21313
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Not sure about us, but you're easy to explain :lol:
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
Econoline
Posts: 9607
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:25 pm
Location: DeKalb, Illinois...out amidst the corn, soybeans, and Republicans

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by Econoline »

:funee:




Nevertheless, Krugman's questions are good ones, and ones I've been wondering about for a while.

Here's a link to the full original op-ed piece (the "Economist's View" version rubato quoted was shorter). This quote contains a few sentences that weren't in the shorter version:
When and why did the Republican Party become the party of pollution?

For it wasn’t always thus. The Clean Air Act of 1970, the legal basis for the Obama administration’s environmental actions, passed the Senate on a bipartisan vote of 73 to 0, and was signed into law by Richard Nixon. (I’ve heard veterans of the E.P.A. describe the Nixon years as a golden age.) A major amendment of the law, which among other things made possible the cap-and-trade system that limits acid rain, was signed in 1990 by former President George H.W. Bush.

But that was then. Today’s Republican Party is putting a conspiracy theorist who views climate science as a “gigantic hoax” in charge of the Senate’s environment committee. And this isn’t an isolated case. Pollution has become a deeply divisive partisan issue.

And the reason pollution has become partisan is that Republicans have moved right. A generation ago, it turns out, environment wasn’t a partisan issue: according to Pew Research, in 1992 an overwhelming majority in both parties favored stricter laws and regulation. Since then, Democratic views haven’t changed, but Republican support for environmental protection has collapsed.

So what explains this anti-environmental shift?

Any thoughts from the Republican sympathizers here?

(And yes, yes, before anyone brings it up: I realize that calling the Republican Party "the party of pollution" is partisan, and polarizing, and unhelpful. The question at the end of my quote is IMHO a better way of phrasing it than the question at the beginning of the quote. If you prefer, you can even leave out the word "anti-environmental"--though I do think it's accurate.)
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

wesw
Posts: 9646
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:24 am
Location: the eastern shore

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by wesw »

...republicans love their children too.

User avatar
Guinevere
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by Guinevere »

Bookmarking to come back to this. I'm obviously a left wing greenie, but I worked in the Bush (GHWB) EPA in the late 80s and early 90s, for Administrator Reilly -- former President of the Conservation Foundation and the World Wildlife Fund -- and was proud to do so. It was a very pro-environment time, and EPA was coming back to life after being at near death during the Reagan years. One of GHWB's signature legislative accomplishments was the Clean Air Act revisions of 1990 -- which created the system we use to day --- helps regulate (among many other things), acid rain and CFCs, reduced the emissions of coal-fired power plants, created cap and trade, focussed on pollution prevention (a policy priority across the Agency), and provided the framework for our current actions on climate change.

It's been painful to see what has happened to the environmental movement, how it has been vilified and attacked, and one of the several reasons that have pushed me from moderate Dem (and remember, I started life and was raised as a moderate Republican) to full-blown progressive.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

wesw
Posts: 9646
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:24 am
Location: the eastern shore

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by wesw »

one mistake that the environmentalists made was not focusing on what they really valued.

they made a big deal about the spotted owl, a little owl that no one had ever heard of, instead of making it about the magnificent forest that was the real prize and blessing.

same thing with the snail darter, it was the water system that mattered and was loved by many....

User avatar
Guinevere
Posts: 8990
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:01 pm

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by Guinevere »

Oy. Wes. Wes. Wes.

Neither the spotted owl nor the snail darter could exist without those old growth forests, or those undammed rivers, and that was the whole point.
Last edited by Guinevere on Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
“I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our necks.” ~ Ruth Bader Ginsburg, paraphrasing Sarah Moore Grimké

wesw
Posts: 9646
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:24 am
Location: the eastern shore

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by wesw »

I agree. the focus should have been on the forests and rivers. most people love them. instead the only things we heard about were the unknown owl and noble snail darter.

I m with you guin, I cry when I see a forest or old tree cut, and damn the dams!

User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by Lord Jim »

Any thoughts from the Republican sympathizers here?
Against my better judgement, (I must have been really bored) I actually opened this thread, started by rube with the title "Politics versus the Environment."...

Then I read the next two words, "Paul Krugman" and realized I should have used my better judgement...

And immediately back clicked...

I haven't looked at this thread again until a few minutes ago...

If you want me to participate in a discussion about the environment and environmental regulations, (perhaps you had some other "Republican sympathizer" in mind... 8-)) then we're going to need a starting point more intellectually legitimate than a screed written by a partisan leftie hack like Krugman...

I'm not going to engage in a debate based on the "question":

"When and why did Republicans start hating clean air and clean water?"

That doesn't seem like a very useful way to set the terms of the debate to me... 8-)
ImageImageImage

User avatar
Econoline
Posts: 9607
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 6:25 pm
Location: DeKalb, Illinois...out amidst the corn, soybeans, and Republicans

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by Econoline »

Let me try this again, Jim (or anyone else who wants to chime in).
The Clean Air Act of 1970, the legal basis for the Obama administration’s environmental actions, passed the Senate on a bipartisan vote of 73 to 0, and was signed into law by Richard Nixon. (I’ve heard veterans of the E.P.A. describe the Nixon years as a golden age.) A major amendment of the law, which among other things made possible the cap-and-trade system that limits acid rain, was signed in 1990 by former President George H.W. Bush.
[...]
A generation ago, it turns out, environment wasn’t a partisan issue: according to Pew Research, in 1992 an overwhelming majority in both parties favored stricter laws and regulation. Since then, Democratic views haven’t changed, but Republican support for environmental protection has collapsed.


So what explains this shift? :shrug

Feel free to start with Krugman's ideas and refute (or agree with :lol: ) them...or else start afresh and answer the question with no reference to the Krugman essay...or maybe start with Guin's experience in the EPA during the (GHW)Bush administration in the late '80s/early '90s.. But I'd really like to know what an intelligent Republican thinks of this very real shift in ideology; as I said before, I've been wondering about this for quite a while.
People who are wrong are just as sure they're right as people who are right. The only difference is, they're wrong.
God @The Tweet of God

rubato
Posts: 14245
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 10:14 pm

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by rubato »

Back in the 1960s and 70s there were a lot of Republican members in the National Audubon Society, the Sierra Club, and the National Wildlife Federation. My parents, like most of my Republican family members, supported all three. The ideological shift since then has been complete.


LJ won't try to refute Paul Krugman because he cannot. And he won't address the lockstep fanaticism in his own party because he cannot.


Global warming is a national security issue. And traitors are refusing to address it.


yrs,
rubato

wesw
Posts: 9646
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:24 am
Location: the eastern shore

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by wesw »

I think if you substitute greedy people for traitors the post is almost palatable.

no one is in lockstep in any party s membership, leadership perhaps, not the rank and file tho

many hunters, and they are legion, support environmental preservation as well as the 2nd amendment.

the attempt to divide us continues.....

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21313
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Krugman is not talking about rank and file or hunters. He writes of the Republican leadership's political activity within the party and more particularly in Congress.

Not given sufficient credit are two vital components of conservative habit. First, the nature of conservatism is to conserve. To be conservative does not automatically mean to resist all innovation. It does mean to favour that which maintains the status quo and/or to roll back disagreeable innovations to recreate what is perceived to be a more desirable past condition.

In the case of desirable innovations such as environmental regulation, a good conservative view equates such things as clean air - something we all want - with a "better" past, even if a somewhat mythical one. People like animals and trees and parks and no smog etc. Politically, the innovative acts that begin the process of reclaiming the "clean" past are welcome and easy to support at all levels.

As time passes, those who like to legislate like to continue to legislate. And those who supported the first steps find it more difficult to support the continuing path that is being taken. That is the second natural tendency of conservatism - to become more suspicious of continuing 'escalation' even in some cases where it seems to others or even to most a reasonable step to take.

None of this excuses "Republican leadership". I merely offer these observations on the nature of the beast.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

rubato
Posts: 14245
Joined: Sun May 09, 2010 10:14 pm

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by rubato »

Some additional commentary:

http://greeneconomics.blogspot.com/2014 ... -anti.html
Krugman gets a B+ for this discussion. He is making the cliche statement that "fat cat Republicans" own shares in the fossil fuel economy and would lose capital gains if they face new environmental taxes.

This is an incomplete answer. He is forgetting Tiebout sorting. Yes, every regulation has "aggregate costs" and "aggregate benefits" but individual voters will compare their costs and their benefits from a specific piece of regulation. Even in Beijing residential areas differ with respect to their air pollution level on the same day. Within Los Angeles, there is huge variation in air pollution levels with the wealthy living in areas with much lower PM2.5 than the poor who live closer to freeways and further from the beach. This separation means that the rich know that they have good air and that enforcing Clean Air Act regulations is a type of redistribution to land owners whose real estate is located in areas (such as homes close to highways) where pollution will decline if new regulations are enforced. Such land owners will be able to charge more their apartments near highways if highway pollution declines due to the regulation.
In other words if you are rich you can live in Palos Verdes and recieve your air pristine fresh and cool as it comes off the Pacific ocean and why would you care about the poor people living in Riverside breathing air polluted by 80 miles of cars and factories?

But this argument only works of the Republican party rules only for the rich who delude and deceive all of their voters who are in the bottom 80% of incomes with bafflegab and failed ideology.

And there couldn't possibly be that many stupid voters out there, could there?

yrs,
rubato

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21313
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Another point flies over rubato's head. The quote he provides does not say anything at all about rich people not caring about poor people etc.

What it says is that the rich people own the property in which the poor people live and clean air regulations will make the poor people's air cleaner, thus allowing the rich cats to charge higher rents. In other words, the rich have a financial interest in clean air in the close-to-the-highway-and-smog areas.

Of course, I suppose some of them might not care about the people per se.

BTW: D+ for spelling and coherence, rube. Hit that edit button quickly!
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

oldr_n_wsr
Posts: 10838
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:59 am

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

the Republican party rules only for the rich
rich have a financial interest in clean air in the close-to-the-highway-and-smog areas.
I get it, the rich living on the coast are most likely registered democrats (liberals?) who are supported by the republicans. :shrug

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21313
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

oldr... how can I say this nicely? er... no.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

oldr_n_wsr
Posts: 10838
Joined: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:59 am

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

MajGenl.Meade wrote:oldr... how can I say this nicely? er... no.
I get what you are saying the rich own the poor peoples property next to the freeway and it is in their interest to have clean air near those properties so they can charge more in rent.

What I was getting at was the republicans are the party of the rich (as per rubato) but the rich on the shore are most likely democrats (or liberals) regardless of whether they care about their poor tenants (likely not, they only care about how much they get in rent and whether or not they get the check)

User avatar
MajGenl.Meade
Posts: 21313
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:51 am
Location: Groot Brakrivier
Contact:

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

I see - you mean the west coast shore because the article is about LA and we all know that liberals overpopulate the area anyway, absent culling? Got it
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

User avatar
Lord Jim
Posts: 29716
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:44 pm
Location: TCTUTKHBDTMDITSAF

Re: Politics versus the Environment.

Post by Lord Jim »

we all know that liberals overpopulate the area anyway, absent culling
Well, now that's the problem...

West Coast Liberals have completely over populated their range and exhausted their food sources...

They're hardly an "endangered" or even "threatened" species...

The phrase "pest species" comes to mind...

Once a hunting season is established, I'll certainly do my bit for the environment by going out and bagging my limit.... 8-)
ImageImageImage

Post Reply