Another grand jury fail...

[MajGenl.Meade]

Well I wouldn't like to try it but.... I don't think so. The airway is either blocked or not. If it's not blocked (air can get out) then air can get in. The number of times this gentleman was able to articulate clearly (and not garbled as someone posted) "I can't breathe" indicates to me that he was breathing. He was having gross difficulty doing so due to three factors (indicated by the coroner and repeated by me).

It's not perhaps very important to argue about except to question how "choke" the chokehold really was - had the damage already been done by the first use and take down? Are we looking at a prolonged (overly prolonged) choking or some other factors here? I saw somewhere it was characterized as a "seizure" but have no idea if that was the case. All deaths have in common the cessation of the heart beating - but what happened physiologically to lead to that?

This has nothing to do with exonerating the officer(s) - although it may have bearing on the degree of culpability of the chokehold guy. Was it someone kneeling on the poor chap's chest that did it? I would like to have a better understanding

[Lord Jim]

Perhaps if it had been somebody fitter or with a different medical history the outcome would not have been so tragic.

That may be, but in this case I don't really think it's relevant since the procedure the cop used was specifically prohibited...

That's the fact I see that's really dispositive in this case...

To give a comparison , take a police officer who works in a jurisdiction where the use of a taser is a legal and acceptable tool to use to subdue a suspect who is resisting arrest. There have been cases, where because of a medical problem or the drugs in the perp's system the taser has triggered cardiac arrest and death.

We can have a debate about whether or this is sufficient justification to have the cops stop using tasers, (though tasers were introduced because they are supposed to be a more humane and less physically damaging way of subduing suspects than more traditional methods; like billy clubs...) But in these cases the officer involved certainly hasn't committed any crime; he followed legal and approved procedures. It's a tragedy, but it's not a crime.

This situation is very different, specifically because what the officer did was prohibited.

[Joe Guy]

That's like blaming a wife for causing her husband to hit her....

I'm not sure that's the best possible analogy...

The relationship between a husband and a wife is different from the relationship between a police officer and a member of the public who is suspected of committing a crime...

Maybe not the best analogy, but it applies (at least it makes sense to me). A wife that gets hit (or killed) by a husband because she disagreed with him or didn't do something he demanded is blamed by the husband for the damage she caused to herself.

A person was arrested and choked to death with an illegal choke hold for resisting and the cop claims his actions were justified because the suspect resisted.

Both are examples of misuse of lethal force.

[oldr_n_wsr]

Is there anyone who feels differently? Anyone who believes the officer's actions were proper and that he should not be held legally responsible? I would be interested in seeing the reasoning behind that point of view.

I'll play.
Regardless of whether the police should be bothering with a guy selling loosies, in this case a bodega owner called the cops to get Garner to stop selling the loosies as it was hurting his business. The police responded to that call and tried to arrest someong breaking the law.
NYC taxes put a pack of butts at over $12. This makes a real oppurtunity for black market cigarettes, and many can't afford a pack so they buy a butt at a time from guys like Garner.

Back on the death of Garner.
There are basically two types of choke holds. One compresses the airway blocking air getting to the lungs (the results of which are usually a compress or broken lairway) and the other that squeezes the blood vessels on either side of the neck. Both are used to render a person unconsious and can be used to cause death.
Here we are dealing with airway blockage.
And we are also dealing with a very large man both in height and width.
The cop who tried to bring Garner down may have been trying to get him in a head lock, which is a hold that is used to "control" a person, something that the cops needed to do as Garner was resisting arrest.
But due to the height difference and his width the cops arms ended up around his neck. Try getting to a persons head when his is as round and tall as garner and your arms will likely end up around his face or neck even when you don't want the too.
Either way it looked like it took very little time, while in hte hold, to get Garner on the ground. And once on the ground, the hold was released. The cop in question and other cops piled on (as they do with many suspects resisting arrest) to control Garner and get his hands into handcuffs. I believe that the cops sitting on his his back had more to do with is death than the few seconds that he was in a choke hold. That, and Garners physical state,from what I read he had asthma, diabetes and a heart condition. Anyone ever wrestle even for 2 minutes? It is exhausting even for people in relatively good shape, forget someone who has asthma, is severely overweight and has a heart condition.

As MGM stated, Garner said "I Can't Breath" many times confirming that he could in fact breath. His breathing may have taken some effort, but he was breathing.

Now I don't condone the use of excessive force, but as i have said before, the best thing to do is to cooperate with them. Resisting only hurts you.

I didn't hear/read what was presented to the GJ so I acannot say what I would have voted for. From my perspective, departmental charges are warranted but not criminal charges. But I will listen to other opinions.

[Guinevere]

Sue can and will explain this better than I, but there is (at least generally -- I don't know about specific NY variations) a legal doctrine referred to as the "eggshell plaintiff" rule -- which means -- at least in the civil/torts context -- that you are responsible for the person you assault, regardless of their medical condition, size, shape etc. That Garner was out of shape, asthmatic, and had a heart condition is entirely irrelevant.

[MajGenl.Meade]

NY Times report - things are rarely as simple as we assume:

It was never supposed to be a chokehold, the officer testified. It was a wrestling move.

After two months of considering evidence in the fatal choking of Eric Garner on July 17, a grand jury on Staten Island was finally hearing from Daniel Pantaleo, the officer accused in the death.

Officer Pantaleo, 29, led the grand jury through the confrontation, narrating three different videos of the arrest that were taken by bystanders. His task would not be easy.

One video, widely seen on the Internet, seemed to show Officer Pantaleo using a chokehold — a move banned by the Police Department, but not explicitly against state law — to bring Mr. Garner down. The medical examiner’s office determined that the chokehold, as well as compression to the chest, caused Mr. Garner’s death, and ruled it a homicide.


The officer tackled some of the most damaging evidence head-on. He acknowledged that he heard Mr. Garner saying, “I can’t breathe, I can’t breathe,” and insisted that he tried to disengage as quickly as he could, according to his lawyer, Stuart London. At the same time, Mr. Garner’s ability to speak, the officer testified, suggested that he, in fact, could breathe.

But then things changed. As the struggle continued, one of Officer Pantaleo’s arms moved around Mr. Garner’s neck. Officer Pantaleo told the grand jury that he became fearful as he found himself sandwiched between a much larger man and a storefront window.

“He testified that the glass buckled while Garner was up against him and he was against the glass,” Mr. London said. “He was concerned that both he and Garner would go through that glass.”

On the video, the men toppled to the ground, but the arm around Mr. Garner’s neck did not appear to move. Officer Pantaleo told jurors he continued to hold on to Mr. Garner as he struggled to regain his balance, Mr. London said. He said he wanted to make sure that Mr. Garner was not injured by other officers rushing in, as well as to prevent Mr. Garner from possibly biting one of them.

On the video, Mr. Garner, 43, can be heard saying that he could not breathe. Officer Pantaleo told the grand jurors he heard those pleas

“That’s why he attempted to get off as quick as he could,” Mr. London said. “He thought that once E.M.T. arrived, everything would be O.K.”

This account does not seem to match what is seen on the video, with Officer Pantaleo holding firm and not appearing to hurry to get off Mr. Garner.

Mr. London said Officer Pantaleo told the grand jurors that he was aware he was being videotaped, telling them, “I expect everything to be filmed,” Mr. London said.

“He knew he was committing no misconduct so it didn’t bother him,” Mr. London said.

Officer Pantaleo’s testimony must have followed a series of deliberate strategic decisions, lawyers who have handled similar cases said.

“In the majority of cases, defendants do not testify in front of a grand jury,” said James J. Culleton, who has represented police officers in high-profile police shootings, including those of Amadou Diallo and Sean Bell.

But police cases are different, he said.

“The justification defense — put it in front of the grand jury,” he said. “I believe the grand jury wants to hear what a police officer has to say. What happened? What was happening around him at the time?”

An officer brings a heightened level of credibility before the grand jury, and perhaps, some sympathy from the prosecutor, said Paul P. Martin, another lawyer from the Bell case.

“You get a sense of whether they want to jam your client or not” before deciding to allow an officer to testify, he said. “You look at the facts and say, Is this something he can beat on the facts?” There is another factor: “Of course, how articulate your client is.”

Other theories arose.

Marvyn Kornberg, a Queens lawyer, has represented several police officers accused of crimes, and said it was likely the autopsy report that played a role in the grand jury’s decision. The report listed several contributing factors in his death, including his obesity, weak heart and asthma.

“There were so many causes of death in the autopsy report,” he said. “You have to prove this guy caused his death.”

[Long Run]

Not sure about the criminal side, but Guin is right to note the "eggshell skull" plaintiff, which should apply on the civil side. My guess is NYC pays a very large wrongful death claim. In contrast, in the Ferguson case, there appears to be a very poor civil claim since the evidence that has been made public shows the deceased caused his own death by attacking the police officer; but the city there might well provide a substantial settlement to make the case go away.

[Lord Jim]

but the city there might well provide a substantial settlement to make the case go away.

I think that's probably right...

There's certainly going to be pressure from the business community to do that...

There's already going to be at least one more round of riots when the DOJ announces that civil rights charges won't be filed; there'll probably be very little stomach for yet another round of rioting when Brown's family lose their civil suit....

[Crackpot]

Meade

Two words: whoopee cushion

[Crackpot]

It's also how my son has almost suffocated twice.

[MajGenl.Meade]

CP

One word: WTF?

[Gob]

One abbreviation, Shirley?

[MajGenl.Meade]

[Crackpot]

Acronym really

[MajGenl.Meade]

Don't be silly. An acronym for whoopee cushion would be WC.

[wesw]

he couldn t breathe because his carotid artery, not his airway, was constricted, reducing his blood flow and his oxygen level. you don t have to actually choke someone s airway to make breathing difficult. he used a sleeper hold.

[Gob]

Acronym really

Nope, an initialism.

Technically, a word that is formed by combining some parts (usually the first letters) of some other terms. For example, modem is the acronym derived from modulator/demodulator. In everyday speech, the term is also used to refer to initialisms, which are combinations of letters representing a longer phrase. For example, CRT is an initialism for cathode ray tube.The difference is that an acronym is pronounced as if it were a word rather than just a series of individual letters.

[Crackpot]

I was driving at the time. A whoopee cushion functions exactly like lung with a collapsed airway. Th lung can squeeze to let air in but if you try to expand it to draw air in the inlet seals shut. Due to malacia my son has experienced such occasions twice in his life.

[MajGenl.Meade]

...or like apnea - air goes out; can't come in. But the point is can you say "I can't breathe" eleven times (or more, I counted on the video) while wrestling with cops, using only the air that was already IN your lungs? Especially unlikely for an asthmatic, I'd guess. Anyway, neither of us know.

[Econoline]