CIA lied to you

[Guinevere]

Older, to by crystal clear, you do NOT speak for me.

When did I ever speak for you?
Everything I write is my own thoughts/opinions and no one elses.
Where did you get the thought that I am speaking for you?

That was the royal we in your opening line then?

[rubato]

A country who uses torture after a minor attack by a group which never had any chance of destroying us does not deserve to survive. The United States is only worth defending when we uphold what is right.


yrs,
rubato

[wesw]

if you treat your enemy with kindness, it will be as hot coals poured upon his head, or something like that....


....and rube presents a false narrative, as usual.

[oldr_n_wsr]

Older, to by crystal clear, you do NOT speak for me.

When did I ever speak for you?
Everything I write is my own thoughts/opinions and no one elses.
Where did you get the thought that I am speaking for you?

That was the royal we in your opening line then?

What this?

How quickly we forget our attitudes in the aftermath of 9/11.

Sorry, I'll change it to

How quickly some people forget our attitudes in the aftermath of 9/11.

[Guinevere]

Lots of us didn't have that attitude in the aftermath of 9/11. Painting everyone with the same brush, in order to justify what was done after 9/11, is just post-hoc rationalization, and its just plain untrue.

And regardless, whatever "our attitudes" were, it still does not justify torture, defiance of the Geneva Convention, and the rule of law.

[wesw]

well, I m no angel. if they had taken the terrorists out back and shot them for their crimes, I would not be as upset.

even a vicious dog deserves a quick death.

[oldr_n_wsr]

A country who uses torture after a minor attack by a group which never had any chance of destroying us does not deserve to survive. The United States is only worth defending when we uphold what is right.


yrs,
rubato

And which minor attack are you talking about? The one that killed about 3000 people?

[rubato]

When the existence of the United States WAS at risk as was the life of George Washington he rejected any cruelty against British prisoners, even though they routinely used it against us.

THAT is a country worthy defending and fighting for not the sniveling cowards who panic at the slightest harm and will stoop to any evil.


http://antiwar.com/blog/2007/12/24/geor ... -my-watch/

George Washington: No Torture on My Watch
Scott Horton, December 24, 2007
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“Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.” - George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775

In my most recent interview of The Other Scott Horton (no relation), the heroic anti-torture human rights attorney, Columbia lecturer and author of the indispensable blog “No Comment” at Harper’s magazine, we discussed the prisoner of war policies of General George Washington, Commander of the Continental Army, and an incident after the Battle of Trenton, New Jersey on December 26, 1776.

It seems that after the battle, the Continentals were preparing to run some of the British Empire’s German mercenaries through what they called the “gauntlet.” General Washington discovered this and intervened. As Horton explained in the Huffington Post, Washington then issued an order to his troops regarding prisoners of war:

“‘Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British Army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren who have fallen into their hands,’ he wrote. In all respects the prisoners were to be treated no worse than American soldiers; and in some respects, better. Through this approach, Washington sought to shame his British adversaries, and to demonstrate the moral superiority of the American cause.”

In the worst of times – when foreign troops literally occupied American soil, torturing and murdering American patriots – and few believed that the cause of the revolution could ultimately win against the might of the British Empire, the first Commander in Chief of the U.S.A. set the precedent that this society is to lead even our enemies by “benignant sympathy of [our] example.” To win the war against the occupying army of Redcoats, the American revolutionaries needed right on their side.

And it worked. Many of the German Hessians in fact joined the revolutionaries in their fight against the English and stayed here in America to be free when the war was won.

Must we abandon this legacy? Is it already too late to reclaim it?

Merry Christmas.

[wesw]

don t bother older. it s like arguing with the wind. insubstantial and impossible to pin down....

the bad part is that I agree with rube about torture, but then he ruins it with specious comments like minor attack

[Guinevere]

And the crocodile tears about the consequences of releasing the report are particularly appalling. The consequences are not about the release, but about the underlying illegal behavior.

[rubato]

A country who uses torture after a minor attack by a group which never had any chance of destroying us does not deserve to survive. The United States is only worth defending when we uphold what is right.


yrs,
rubato

And which minor attack are you talking about? The one that killed about 3000 people?

0.00095 % casualties is tiny. Not even "small", no matter how easily you are personally frightened. Not enough to justify degrading ourselves and acting like worse animals than the ones who attacked us.


George Washington understood that doing the right thing matters when everything is on the line including his own life. Not 0.00095% of everything.


yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

Sorry, I'll change it to

How quickly some people forget our attitudes in the aftermath of 9/11.

That just made it worse, oldr Now you're excluding yourself from forgetting but accusing Guin (and others including me) of forgetting our attitudes

Did you get angry
or did you report
on the day they wounded New York?

L Cohen
... who also recorded (right after That Day In New York on Dear Heather) this wonderful poem by F R Scott:

A Villanelle for Our Time

From bitter searching of the heart,
Quickened with passion and with pain
We rise to play a greater part.
This is the faith from which we start:
Men shall know commonwealth again
From bitter searching of the heart.
We loved the easy and the smart,
But now, with keener hand and brain,
We rise to play a greater part.
The lesser loyalties depart,
And neither race nor creed remain
From bitter searching of the heart.
Not steering by the venal chart
That tricked the mass for private gain,
We rise to play a greater part.
Reshaping narrow law and art
Whose symbols are the millions slain,
From bitter searching of the heart
We rise to play a greater part.

[wesw]

the release seemed to be timed for political advantage guin.

[rubato]

And the crocodile tears about the consequences of releasing the report are particularly appalling. The consequences are not about the release, but about the underlying illegal behavior.

Seconded.

History has shown us by our own example that no administration can escape the corrupting influence of being able to hide their actions from public examination forever.

We needed this to regain some dignity as moral people just like we needed Snowden and Wikileaks to keep us honest.


yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

the release seemed to be timed for political advantage guin.

The release was timed this way because it was the very last chance to do it. Once the Republicans take over the crimes are hidden forever.

yrs,
rubato

[wesw]

it was all common freakin knowledge already!!!!!!!

[MajGenl.Meade]

the release seemed to be timed for political advantage guin.

... and pray tell at what time of release you would be unable to make that claim? Also please explain the political advantage that is being gained - you may use both sides of the paper


ETA sorry about dat!

[wesw]

because the clamor over the release drowned out any stories about the admins health care deceptions and gruber s testimony yesterday. I couldn t watch c span 1 and two at the same time.

does denigrating others make you feel better meade? stick to rube, I m outta your league....

I ve sworn off being nasty, but you are an easy target too....

[rubato]

it was all common freakin knowledge already!!!!!!!

Make up your mind, there either was or was not a release.


yrs,
rubato

[wesw]

...and I was talking, reasonably, to guin, arsehole