CIA lied to you

[Sue U]

Don't have time to chime in today, but Meade has said pretty much everything I'd say, anyway. There are many issues that should rightly transcend quotidian politics, and this is one.

[Lord Jim]

Trying to catch up here:

Big RR:

Well it's out there for anyone to refute if they have further information; I think the committee reviewed the written record to reach that conclusion, but if someone can prove it wrong, let them go ahead and do so.

Big RR, you do realize this is the same committee that in a bipartisan report found that the NSA programs have provided essential intel for foiling terrorist plots, that the programs received intensive oversight from all three branches of government, and that the information leaked about the programs by The Traitor Snowden had done great harm to US security...

As I recall from the discussion we had about that, (not too long ago) you were far less sanguine in terms of accepting that report, then you are today in accepting this one...

In fact, as I recall, you essentially said that you assumed they were lying unless they provided publicly the evidence to back up their conclusions...

Curiously, you don't seem to be applying the same standard here...

I certainly don't want to misrepresent your position on that so if you feel I have, please say so and I will do a search and provide the quotes from that exchange...

Comrade Meade:

Neither rubato nor myself has stated that this was "not a very big deal"

Meade, are you sure you've been reading what poison dwarf has been saying in this thread?

a minor attack

0.00095 % casualties is tiny. Not even "small", no matter how easily you are personally frightened.

Would you care to try to explain the meaningful difference between, "a minor attack" and "tiny.Not even small" and "not a very big deal"?

I invite you to do so...(In much the same spirit that I invited rube to explain the difference between "too cheap" and "should be more expensive"; if you choose to attempt to do so, it should make for amusing reading... )

LJ / Meade agreement - 0%

Well, it's not my fault you've decided to go completely pinko on this issue...(which is why you're getting so many plaudits from the resident pinkos...but I can tell you as one who has also received their plaudits from time to time, that their praise is fleeting, and entirely situational... )

oldr:

I have no trouble stooping to their level to achieve vengance.

I have a completely different take on this...

I absolutely oppose us "stooping to their level", but I categorically reject the premise that we in any way shape or form have done so...

"Their level" involves deliberately targeting innocent people for murder; it is central both to their tactics, and to their strategy...

We do not target innocent non-combatants...(at least not in the present context; we certainly did during WW II, but that's a whole different subject...)

Our present enemies do so as a matter of course; it is central to their doctrine...

rube:

it was all common freakin knowledge already!!!!!!!

Make up your mind, there either was or was not a release.


yrs,
rubato

I know it's pointless to try to explain this to a person who doesn't understand the difference between a single online story from a wire service and wall-to-wall 24/7 cable news and social media coverage, but just in case anybody else may be unclear on this:

Yes, pretty much every single aspect of the enhanced interrogation program has already been reported, and is therefore public knowledge...

But what this completely unnecessary report has done, is put it all together in one neat package and tied it up with a bow as a propaganda Christmas present for our enemies...(and included the completely unsubstantiated conclusion that no valuable intel was acquired to boot)

A Christmas present enhanced by a huge focus of both traditional and non-traditional media attention...

As I said earlier, I suspect we are going to be paying for the foolish decision to release this report for a very long time...

Re Mr. Green:

It may be that the original intent of " " was to indicate jealousy, but my interpretation of that emoticon has always been as a symbol of "snarky humor" ....

[wesw]

well jim you did not ask me but.....

I think the 911 attack was major. destructive of not only people, but our entire financial structure, not to mention crippling to our greatest city. I think it was part of a larger religious war being waged against us which demands we stand and fight for our lives, as is evident by what has happened to peoples in Iraq and Syria who did not agree with the islamists.

I still don t support torture. I choose liberty over safety.

[MajGenl.Meade]

My mission in life is either to amuse LJ or to scrape my fingernails over his blackboard - can't decide which....

Meade, are you sure you've been reading what poison dwarf has been saying in this thread? Would you care to try to explain the meaningful difference between, "a minor attack" and "tiny. Not even small" and "not a very big deal"? I invite you to do so...(In much the same spirit that I invited rube to explain the difference between "too cheap" and "should be more expensive"; if you choose to attempt to do so, it should make for amusing reading... )

Why yes LJ. I'd love to explain that. It has to do with the English language... now I know it's difficult in its depths but give it a go, eh

A minor attack refers to the size of er... an attack. This was a small attack - almost insignificant in size - like a mosquito bite to an elephant.

Not a very big deal would mean that I (and my bosom chum, rubato) had said that it was not important to people - who are the ones, after all, who make a "big deal" out of anything, whether the event itself be small or large. Neither one of us said that people didn't make a big deal out of it - nor did we say that in its effect it was "not a very big deal". Of course it was - because people (including me) went ape-shit all over the place. A big deal was made out of what is (in tactical terms) a very clever but minor strike.

I'd say that strategically the big deal makers overseas made hay out of it. All the little Osamas jumped for joy.

So I'll repeat that Pearl Harbor was a minor attack too - tactically well done but absolutely minor in terms of the strategic objective of knocking the USian fleet out of the war (cf. aircraft carriers). Strategically it was a blunder really - the USians made a big deal out of it and then big-dealt with Japan all over Asia-Pacific.

The US complained (rightly and bitterly) about Japanese abuses and torture of American prisoners. Goose/gander, anyone?

PS I agree with you on "too cheap" and "should be more expensive" - logical deductions.

[rubato]

"...

So I'll repeat that Pearl Harbor was a minor attack too - tactically well done but absolutely minor in terms of the strategic objective of knocking the USian fleet out of the war (cf. aircraft carriers). Strategically it was a blunder really - the USians made a big deal out of it and then big-dealt with Japan all over Asia-Pacific.

The US complained (rightly and bitterly) about Japanese abuses and torture of American prisoners. Goose/gander, anyone?

PS I agree with you on "too cheap" and "should be more expensive" - logical deductions.

The attack on Pearl Harbor was unsuccessful strategically because of the accident that the aircraft carriers were at sea and thus spared, but it was tactically a complete success and not minor; it was an attack by a significantly large well supported and well prepared militarily aggressive opponent who was engaged in a campaign of conquest across Asia. And it was only the first in a series of acts of aggression.

The Japanese used not only systematic torture, which BushCo has now stained us with, but genocide and cannibalism.

yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

well jim you did not ask me but.....

I think the 911 attack was major. destructive of not only people, but our entire financial structure, not to mention crippling to our greatest city. .... "

The financial structure was destroyed by BushCo and the Republican Legislatures which caused the worst economic collapse in 80 years beginning in 2007-2008. The recession was over by November, two months after 9-11.


yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

Interesting that in this thread and previous ones on this topic all of the Republican apologists ignore the George Washington example.

He was a man who knew what principles were worth dying for; and they are sniveling mean little children.


yrs,
rubato

[wesw]

and the love affair ends.....

[Lord Jim]

Rube, I still await your explanation for this:

0.00095 % casualties is tiny. Not even "small", no matter how easily you are personally frightened. Not enough to justify degrading ourselves and acting like worse animals than the ones who attacked us.

That really is truly mind boggling...

I am a student of aberrant human psychology, but I can't even being to wrap my mind around this one...

The mass murder of 3000 innocent people is "tiny", but water boarding three senior terrorists involved in the planning of that mass murder for the purpose of gathering intel to prevent further mass murders, means that we're "acting like worse animals than the ones who attacked us"...

The level of mental confusion and moral obtuseness required to be able to hold those two thoughts in one's mind simultaneously and not see any logical or moral contradictions, is totally inaccessible to my comprehension...

It truly beggars the imagination...

No, once again, I tell a lie...

I really don't expect an explanation...

[Lord Jim]

A person who viewed the murder of 3000 of his fellow citizens as "tiny" might be considered a sociopath....

But certainly not in rube's case...

"Sociopaths" are known for having higher than above average IQs...

Something rube need never be concerned about...

No, rube is not a high functioning sociopath....

He's just a low functioning asshole...

[Joe Guy]

The mass murder of 3000 innocent people is "tiny", but water boarding three senior terrorists involved in the planning of that mass murder for the purpose of gathering intel to prevent further mass murders, means that we're "acting like worse animals than the ones who attacked us"...

Translation: republicans are bad....

[Lord Jim]

well jim you did not ask me

No, I certainly did not...

[Sue U]

It's all about scale. Kill one man and you're a murderer; kill millions and you're a conqueror; kill them all and you're a god.

[Econoline]

Interesting that in this thread and previous ones on this topic all of the Republican apologists ignore the George Washington example.

He was a man who knew what principles were worth dying for...

Or if the words of George Washington aren't good enough, how about the words of another more recent President:

“The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention. It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today. The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called ‘universal jurisdiction.’ Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.”

- Ronald Reagan, President of the United States, 1984
Address to the Nation upon signing the UN Convention On Torture

[BoSoxGal]

I very much agree with Sue's post, and with what's been said by Meade, Big RR, Econo and yes, even rubato.

9/11 was a terrible tragedy, as any person's death is a tragedy to those they loved and who loved them in return. 3000 such tragedies occurred that day, and the rest of America was shocked, saddened and in some cases very angered to learn that it is not impervious to attack, and that global bullying and stirring the political pots of other peoples' nations - i.e., imperialism - can come back to bite you.

I dearly love my country, and as I've mentioned before, my family's personal history is inextricably linked to her founding and the many battles fought to preserve her, so patriotism was instilled in me from the time I was at the breast.

But I listened long and carefully to Senator Byrd when he gave his impassioned speeches in opposition of voting to authorize the invasion of Iraq; he was one of the greatest students ever of the history of the US Senate, as well as of the Roman Senate, and all of what he said weighed heavily on my heart - what we did then and the slope it has led us down has changed our nation fundamentally.

I am not so proud of my country as I was before 9/11.

Following that time, I read a lot more of my country's history of engagement with other nations, outside of what I'd been taught in secondary school. I was dismayed to realize that for a very long time my country's been playing around with other peoples' liberty - and lives - in order to pursue political - but more honestly, economic - interests, damned what it did to others.

So when you consider the many bad acts of this country, the hundreds of thousands of people whose deaths and the millions whose suffering is in large part due to our adventures abroad over many decades . . . well then, 3000 tragedies is really very small indeed.

But no less tragic to those they loved and who loved them.

The reaction of our country created many millions more tragedies, thousands upon thousands being the irrevocably altered lives of the men and women we sent to 'war', the deaths of soldiers and the grief imposed on families left behind, and thousands upon thousands more killed in Iraq & Afghanistan, and millions displaced from those countries and the other ME countries that became destabilized in the aftermath. Not to mention an economy destroyed by war profiteering and failure to mind business at home, which altered many more millions of lives. All of which merely enlarged the tragedy of 9/11 to staggering proportions.

But it was 'our' willingness to torture, and to defend torture, which brought me a hair's breadth from emigrating to Canada.

But I love my country, and I hope I live to see her recovered from this adventure in following fear over moral rectitude.

I believe we can still be that shining beacon on a hill.



Meade, the big green grin is described merely as 'big grin' at every forum I've ever visited. Thank you for pulling yourself from the right wing you've been wallowing in of late , and posting those beautiful words about why we can never EVER cross that line and defend it - very eloquent, indeed.

oldr, I want to say that having worked for many years now with victims of physical and psychological violence, I empathize entirely with your anger and profound sadness over 9/11. We all have some PTSD from that event, but those of you in the NY/DC areas feel it very deeply and probably always will.

However, one of the things I have always tried to believe in about the justice system, especially as a prosecutor, is that we stand in between victim and defendant so the overarching principles inherent in our Constitution can be adhered to in meting out justice and punishment, rather than allowing the desire for vengeance of the victim to govern the process. It's no different with 9/11 - you can have those feelings and they are entirely justified - but those who work for us in government should have followed the law and put aside their fear or desire for vengeance and should never have turned US all into torturers. It is shameful, and they violated their sacred oaths to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America against all foes, foreign AND domestic . . . the domestic ones in this case being the irrational politicians and their attorneys who sent orders to torture and created warped interpretations of the law which alleged to prove that the law supported torture.

[Sue U]

Senator Byrd . . . was one of the greatest students ever of the history of the US Senate, as well as of the Roman Senate,

Pretty sure he served in both.

[Lord Jim]

It's all about scale. Kill one man and you're a murderer; kill millions and you're a conqueror; kill them all and you're a god.

Gee, that's an awfully depressing construct...

[BoSoxGal]

Senator Byrd . . . was one of the greatest students ever of the history of the US Senate, as well as of the Roman Senate,

Pretty sure he served in both.

[Sue U]

It's all about scale. Kill one man and you're a murderer; kill millions and you're a conqueror; kill them all and you're a god.

Gee, that's an awfully depressing construct...

Well, you can blame Jean Rostand for that quip. He also said something like "My pessimism is such that I doubt the sincerity of other pessimists."

[Lord Jim]

You think you're funny....Mr Green man...

Oh Christ, I'm not getting any younger....