CUBAN RELATIONS

[wesw]

I don't know guys...

seems to me that iran and Saudi Arabia are certainly not left wing dictatorships....

....please don t wax nostalgic about Nixon, I just ate lunch.

high functioning psychopath is how I d characterize him

[Gob]

The current policy has had the effect of keeping the Castro brothers and the communists in power for 60 years; how could trying a different approach have any worse effect than that?

Agreed. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

[Sue U]

The current policy has had the effect of keeping the Castro brothers and the communists in power for 60 years; how could trying a different approach have any worse effect than that?

Agreed. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

But if we only would keep at it a few more years, it would certainly result in the the Castros' death.

[Big RR]

And that's why Obama is pushing this so hard; just like Reagan, he wants to go down in history as the person whop ended communism in Cuba or, failing that, the guy who ended the reign of the Castros. He's shrewd, Obama is.

[wesw]

I m pretty sure that only death will end the castros' reign.

watch out for us giving up rights to Guantanamo soon tho.....

[Big RR]

I'll never forget his inspiring speech about trademarks and the Bacardi distillery, where he said, "Senor Castro, tear down this rum factory". It's the stuff of greatness.

[RayThom]

Those countries that started the "war to end all wars" and causing over 50,000,000 deaths-- German and Japan -- were freely selling Volkswagen automobiles and Yamaha motorcycles in the United State of America within a handful of years after their surrender.

In 1962 Cuba (but mostly Russia) unsuccessfully tried to start WWIII and failed, with no combat deaths recorded. Cuban cigars and rum (and everything else Cuban) are still banned in the USA 52 years later.

You'd could almost argue the US had some kind of odd and unfairly administrated political agenda. It's time to let the Catholic communist nation of Cuba to be recognized globally. Just like the US does with China, an "ally" of sorts, that is currently in the process of assimilating the once free trade zone of Hong Kong.

Hey, jes' sayin'.

[BoSoxGal]

Eggzactly! Good points all, RayThom!

[wesw]

well I agree about cuba, but "assimilating" and "ally" is being overly generous as far as china goes....

[rubato]

Nixon/China. 'nuff said.

Ahhh China, that would be the country who had attacked Tibet, slaughtered its inhabitants, tried to destroy their culture and religion and who still have done nothing to undo that. In fact they have accelerated the invasion of Han Chinese to dilute Tibetan culture into non-existence. ... You're right, that is worse, much worse.




yrs,
rubato

[Jarlaxle]

... "it seemed like a good idea at the time."

All indication show Fidel is still stuck in the '50s and battling senile dementia. It's Raúl that who is more progressive and sees the need for change. Either way, it's a done deal. Besides, the pope said it and I believe it.

In the words of Dr. Seuss, "Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened."

Honestly, I suspect Fidel has been non compos mentis for a while now.

My father in law is absolutely livid about this.

[Jarlaxle]

Analogy - it wasn't popular amongst hard-right dinosaurs

And I would say they were dead on the mark! China is as repressive as ever...and they pretty much own us lock, stock, and barrel now! It's at the point where in many cases, if you want a product-regardless of brand-it WILL be from China...because there is NOTHING ELSE AVAILABLE.

[Econoline]

Well Econo, we severed full diplomatic relations with Myanmar and imposed sanctions on them (under the George W. Bush Administration) and did not restore full relations and lift sanctions until they had made tangible progress in democratizing their society...(releasing political prisoners, establishing freedom of speech and the press, independent political parties, and independent unions, etc.)

A standard we have not applied here....

True, diplomatic relations with Burma/Myanmar were downgraded (not completely severed, as with Cuba and Iran; we still had formal diplomatic relations, but were represented by a chargé d'affaires rather than an ambassador) for 22 years (1990-2012) and we had economic sanctions in place for 11 years (2003-present, though we began lifting them in 2012).

But we had considerably more multilateral international support for those sanctions than we do for the Cuba embargo; in this case the U.S. is pretty much going it alone, while sanctions and embargoes only work well when there is broad international support. (Are there any other countries who are with us on this?) Also--as I and others have already pointed out--after more than 50 years there is ZERO indication that simply continuing the status quo is going to have ANY effect on the communist regime in Cuba.

In the absence of (1) any international support and (2) any indication of effectiveness, how long do we have to continue a failed policy before trying something different?



ETA: BTW...are you in favor of cutting off diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia, Zimbabwe, Belarus, Brunei, Vietnam, China, Russia, etc.?

[rubato]

"...

In the absence of (1) any international support and (2) any indication of effectiveness, how long do we have to continue a failed policy before trying something different?

... "

That's what is so great about being a conservative. You're never wrong no matter how many times the experiment fails! 50 years of complete and total failure is nothing to a True American Conservative.


Besides, it was never about the people of Cuba who have been the ones who suffered the harmful effects of the embargo it was about how mad we were at Castro and how much we hated and wanted to punish him.

You see, Econoline, Cubans aren't real people. If there were real people it would be immoral to make them suffer just to hurt their leadership. And don't listen to those nay-sayers who say that having the US embargo as a perpetual excuse for poor economic performance actually helped Castro. Well, ok, it did help him, but just forget about that. That would make us look like idiots for helping to preserve the Castros and we KNOW that can't be true because we have always known that and no mere facts can persuade us.


yrs,
rubato

[wesw]

how is hating republicans any different rube? your hatred makes you stupid....

[Lord Jim]

he people of Cuba who have been the ones who suffered the harmful effects of the embargo

I see rube's been drinking the Castro koolaid...

The people of Cuba are suffering under the harmful effects of more than half a century of economic mismanagement. The idea that the US embargo is creating "suffering" among average Cubans, (when every other country in the world trades with them) is nothing but regime propaganda.

[Econoline]

Actually, that's another good reason to end the boycott: to show the Cuban people that their leaders' blaming all the country's woes on the U.S. boycott is a load of hooey.

[rubato]

he people of Cuba who have been the ones who suffered the harmful effects of the embargo

I see rube's been drinking the Castro koolaid...

The people of Cuba are suffering under the harmful effects of more than half a century of economic mismanagement. The idea that the US embargo is creating "suffering" among average Cubans, (when every other country in the world trades with them) is nothing but regime propaganda.

Hey, you know what really inspires change? Doing the same dumb-fuck thing you've done for 50 YEARS. That really shakes things up.


The conservative agenda is driven by a childishly emotional view of the world.

1960s "I'm REALLY MAD and I'm going to EMBARGO YOUR ECONOMY".
1970s "I'm STILL REALLY MAD and I'm going to EMBARGO YOUR ECONOMY". (even though it is having no effect and you are less oppressive than Somoza or El Salvador, or later on Pinochet)
1980s "I'm STILL REALLY MAD and I'm going to EMBARGO YOUR ECONOMY". (even though your Soviet backers are in genteel poverty and cannot prop you up as much).
1990s "I'm STILL REALLY MAD and I'm going to EMBARGO YOUR ECONOMY" (even though your Soviet backers are bankrupt and cannot prop you up any more).
2000s "I'm too big a coward, moron and jackass to admit that the Embargo is having no effect and I'm going to EMBARGO YOUR ECONOMY"

Barack Obama "Wow, 50 years of nothing is enough. Let's try something different."



yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

Human beings are conditioned by our biology to sense change, we ignore stasis. If you force people to accept some level of difficulty they will adapt and re-set their expectation based on that set point. 50 years is 30 years too long to have continued that policy. It was stupid. If Reagan really had any insight into anything he would have done the same back in 1982.


yrs,
rubato

[BoSoxGal]

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