Terrorist Attack In Paris

[wesw]

I apologize sue, but the fact that you seem willing to stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes to what is happening daily and say Lalalalalalala, just pisses me off. this the most angry I have ever been on this site.

how many more girls in Africa need to be made sex slaves? how many more Christians must be slaughtered? how many times must the jews be called dirty monkeys? will the Yazidi people s extermination be enough? what about the muslim women? don t they deserve emancipation? should we condone the clitoris cutting and virtual slavery?

GAH!!!!!!!!!!

wake up

[BoSoxGal]

Sue is, as usual, spot on.

[wesw]

oh yes, let s slaughter the Mongolians. that Genghis khan deserves payback. we could nuke the Italians for the greeks too, rome really screwed them. we would have to kill the muslims too I guess, since they embraced slavery for thousands of years, some still do in fact, check sudan. and al Sharpton better wipe out some African tribes, as they sold everyone slaves. the norse, can t forget to punish the norse, those Vikings kicked ass all the way to asia minor.

enlightened indeed

GAH!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BoSoxGal]

wes, would you kindly consider capitalizing Mr. Henry's last name in your signature line? It's the honorable thing to do.

[BoSoxGal]

I'll just beat Gob to the punch:

[MajGenl.Meade]

Sue's convinced me.

[BoSoxGal]

I apologize sue, but the fact that you seem willing to stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes to what is happening daily and say Lalalalalalala, just pisses me off. this the most angry I have ever been on this site.

how many more girls in Africa need to be made sex slaves? how many more Christians must be slaughtered? how many times must the jews be called dirty monkeys? will the Yazidi people s extermination be enough? what about the muslim women? don t they deserve emancipation? should we condone the clitoris cutting and virtual slavery?

GAH!!!!!!!!!!

wake up

Oh gosh, missed this post! Head girl must weigh in.

wes, Sue is very progressively-minded and I'm sure she is much concerned about the oppression of women and children, and even men, anywhere, by anyone.

Pointing out that terrorists comprise a tiny fraction of a huge world religion doesn't undermine that.


eta: wesw saying 'wake up' to Sue =

[Lord Jim]

But just stop a minute to consider this: with 1.6 billion Muslims in the world, even a million terrorist thugs claiming to be jihadists would represent the most minuscule fraction the Ummah and the tiniest splinter of Islam.

I believe I pointed that out before, but looking at it a different way:

A million terrorists, when considering terrorists,is still a helluva lot of terrorists even if it's just a tiny percentage. In fact even if it were a 10th of that, 100,000 terrorists, it would still represent a huge threat.

But I certainly don't hold the entire religion responsible for that. The war is with the Islamo Fascists, who are using a twisted version of Islam to justify their murderous deeds, not with Islam itself.

[Econoline]

Oh, come on...France survived Hitler and the Nazi occupation. I'm sure they will survive a handful of Muslim wackos. Vive la France!

[wesw]

I notice no one stood up for free speech or praised the bravery of the victims in france.

weak, weak as water

[Guinevere]

wes, if you seriously think there isn't anyone who posts here who doesn't believe in free speech, believes in the right of the press and journalism to publish what they want -- especially when it is satirical political opinion --- then you have not been paying attention to what this place is all about. And why we post here. Calling Sue dense just underscores who in this conversation isn't getting it.

JeSuisCharlie

[Guinevere]

George Packer, from the New Yorker last night:

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk ... do-murders

The murders today in Paris are not a result of France’s failure to assimilate two generations of Muslim immigrants from its former colonies. They’re not about French military action against the Islamic State in the Middle East, or the American invasion of Iraq before that. They’re not part of some general wave of nihilistic violence in the economically depressed, socially atomized, morally hollow West—the Paris version of Newtown or Oslo. Least of all should they be “understood” as reactions to disrespect for religion on the part of irresponsible cartoonists.

They are only the latest blows delivered by an ideology that has sought to achieve power through terror for decades. It’s the same ideology that sent Salman Rushdie into hiding for a decade under a death sentence for writing a novel, then killed his Japanese translator and tried to kill his Italian translator and Norwegian publisher. The ideology that murdered three thousand people in the U.S. on September 11, 2001. The one that butchered Theo van Gogh in the streets of Amsterdam, in 2004, for making a film. The one that has brought mass rape and slaughter to the cities and deserts of Syria and Iraq. That massacred a hundred and thirty-two children and thirteen adults in a school in Peshawar last month. That regularly kills so many Nigerians, especially young ones, that hardly anyone pays attention.

Because the ideology is the product of a major world religion, a lot of painstaking pretzel logic goes into trying to explain what the violence does, or doesn’t, have to do with Islam. Some well-meaning people tiptoe around the Islamic connection, claiming that the carnage has nothing to do with faith, or that Islam is a religion of peace, or that, at most, the violence represents a “distortion” of a great religion. (After suicide bombings in Baghdad, I grew used to hearing Iraqis say, “No Muslim would do this.”) Others want to lay the blame entirely on the theological content of Islam, as if other religions are more inherently peaceful—a notion belied by history as well as scripture.

A religion is not just a set of texts but the living beliefs and practices of its adherents. Islam today includes a substantial minority of believers who countenance, if they don’t actually carry out, a degree of violence in the application of their convictions that is currently unique. Charlie Hebdo had been nondenominational in its satire, sticking its finger into the sensitivities of Jews and Christians, too—but only Muslims responded with threats and acts of terrorism. For some believers, the violence serves a will to absolute power in the name of God, which is a form of totalitarianism called Islamism—politics as religion, religion as politics. “Allahu Akbar!” the killers shouted in the street outside Charlie Hebdo. They, at any rate, know what they’re about.

These thoughts don’t offer a guide to mitigating the astonishing surge in Islamist killing around the world. Rage and condemnation don’t do the job, nor is it helpful to alienate the millions of Muslims who dislike what’s being done in the name of their religion. Many of them immediately condemned the attack on Charlie Hebdo, in tones of anguish particular to those whose deepest beliefs have been tainted. The answer always has to be careful, thoughtful, and tailored to particular circumstances. In France, it will need to include a renewed debate about how the republic can prevent more of its young Muslim citizens from giving up their minds to a murderous ideology—how more of them might come to consider Mustapha Ourrad, a Charlie Hebdo copy editor of Algerian descent who was among the victims, a hero. In other places, the responses have to be different, with higher levels of counter-violence.

But the murders in Paris were so specific and so brazen as to make their meaning quite clear. The cartoonists died for an idea. The killers are soldiers in a war against freedom of thought and speech, against tolerance, pluralism, and the right to offend—against everything decent in a democratic society. So we must all try to be Charlie, not just today but every day.

ETA: I don't have the answers, I'm not entirely sure what I think, except its complicated and there is no simple, easy solution, and it certainly doesn't involve shunning, alienating, discriminating against, or bombing the crap out of entire people, nation, or religion. That's what I like about what Packer says above.

[wesw]

we have a winner!

guin, believing in freedom is not enough, it must be defended.

making excuses for clit cutting, head chopping, acid throwing, ethic cleansing extremists is suicide.

yes, some muslims have suffered, so have the jews. all nation races and religions have gotten the shitty end of the stick at one time or another.

the Saudis have had it pretty good, we would have never gone to Iraq if not for them, what s their excuse?

[Guinevere]

Where, exactly, does anyone excuse any of the behavior you cite?

Simple statements like "freedom must be defended" (yes, I'm paraphrasing) doesn't get close to the truth or complexity of the issue, either. What's your solution, wes?

[Lord Jim]

Superb article Guin.

[wesw]

their is a difference between excusing and making excuses for, guin. people blaming this on the crusades, in the middle freakin ages, are making excuses for .....

the solution is the hard part. damned if I know guin.

I do know that if anyone, Christian jew muslim or hindu, or atheist tries to burst thru my door with ill intent, I will do my damnedest to stop them. and if they get in and start shooting, I will be shooting back.

[wesw]

yes, that was an excellent article.

[Lord Jim]

A shout out to CNN...

While I was following this yesterday afternoon, for a considerable amount of time, both MSNBC and FOX News were reporting that one of the gunmen had been killed, and two had surrendered; CNN did not report that. (It was based on an unconfirmed report from an unnamed US intelligence source, but it was reported as fact.)

It turns out that CNN was right to hold off reporting it; the report was wrong. The 18 year old has surrendered, but the other two remain at large:

Suspected Gunmen In Paris Shooting Spotted In Northern France; 7 Arrested In Investigation

Police are on the hunt for two men involved in Wednesday's terrorist attack at the satirical weekly Charlie Hebdo that left 12 people dead.

Police say suspects Said and Cherif Kouachi, two brothers, are on the loose and are armed and dangerous after escaping the attack by car. According the latest reports, the two have been seen driving along a road about 30 miles north of Paris and at a petrol station in Aisne in northern France.

The brothers reportedly robbed a gas station in northern France where they were spotted, BBC reports.

AFP reports that the men were seen armed with AK-47s and RPG rocket launchers. French special forces have been deployed to the area. French media is reporting that the suspects are barricaded in a house in town of Crepy-en-Valois, surrounded by police.

A third man, the Kouachis' 18-year old stepbrother Hamyd Mourad, handed himself over to police in northeastern France late Wednesday, according to AFP. Mourad is from an area near Reims in northeastern France.

BFM TV, citing unidentified sources, said Mourad decided to go to the police after seeing his name on social media as one of the suspects sought by police in connection with the attack.

Police arrested seven people overnight, French Prime Minister Manuel Valls told local media, but it's unclear who has been detained and how they're connected to the attack. Those arrested reportedly include people who knew the Kouachi brothers.

Brothers Have Links To Terrorism

Both men sought by authorities as suspects, Said Kouachi, 34, and Cherif Kouachi, 32, are French nationals.

The brothers are linked to a Yemeni terrorist network, an anonymous police official told the Associated Press. A witness at the scene of the attack quoted the gunmen as saying, "You can tell the media that it's Al Qaeda in Yemen."

Police identified the men as suspects after Said "left his identification papers in the abandoned Citroën vehicle used to escape after the attack on Charlie Hebdo," The New York Times reports.

The Times reports that authorities said Mourad, who surrendered to police Wednesday night, drove the getaway car.

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/man-link ... z3OF6Qyvyf

It seems to me that what we've seen so far suggests that they've had some training in weapons use and carrying out an attack, but when it comes to after action planning, not so much...

Stupid things like leaving the ID in the car and having to rob gas stations for funds suggest that these are not exactly a couple of terrorist masterminds, and I suspect that they'll be apprehended or killed before too much longer. However, since they are both heavily armed and desperate, so long as they're still at large they remain an extremely dangerous threat; they may try to launch some last ditch "blaze of glory" attack...

ETA:

This is one thing that this has in common with the Boston Bombing case...

The perps had a well planned and well executed attack (suggesting that they had some help with that) but when they were left to using their own brains to figure out what to do next, there was a steep drop in the intelligence level...

[Guinevere]

I don't necessarily agree that a well planned attack means they had help. It's one thing to be able to do research, and process information over time, and plan. It is entirely another thing to be able to react and think on your feet (which is why high level training requires you to act on instinct, not on thought). Clearly these guys had some of the same limitations as the Boston bombers -- not professionals, merely amateurs who could plan well. I hope the French police catch up with them as quickly as the MA/Boston/local police found the Tsarnaevs. I'm hopeful they will, and hopefully without incident and more death (that part I'm less hopeful about).

[Sue U]

their is a difference between excusing and making excuses for, guin. people blaming this on the crusades, in the middle freakin ages, are making excuses for .....

Nobody is "making excuses" for this attack, nor blaming it on the Crusades. To the extent that you think "Islam" is somehow "waging war" against Europe and the US, I was merely pointing out that there is another very different perspective. The Crusades are a handy place to start, but they are certainly not the end. If you knew anything about history, you could draw a line from there straight through the "Reconquista," the Ottoman Empire, the Napoleonic campaigns, and the Balkan Wars, to name just a few highlights, to the 20th Century British and French colonialism of the Near East under League of Nations "mandates."

You seem to think history is just a series of discrete events punctuating a timeline. You should mind Faulkner's observation that "the past is never dead; it isn't even the past."

Opinion
Islamic civilisation is in Europe's DNA
France must cherish its multicultural experiment.
Last updated: 08 Jan 2015 08:23

Khaled Diab

The brutal and tragic murders of 12 people at the offices of Charlie Hebdo in Paris - 10 staff members and two police officers - by masked gunmen has triggered an outpouring of shock and grief, not only in France but around the world.

Large, spontaneous vigils filled the streets of many French cities, while social media was awash with solidarity and condemnation, including the hashtags #JeSuisCharlie and #NotInMyName, which was used by Muslims condemning the attacks.

Police in France have identified and released the photographs of two brothers suspected to be involved in the attack while early speculation focused on the premise that Muslim extremists were behind the dreadful act, especially given the magazine's long history of satirising Islam and other religions. The two brothers have been identified as 32-year-old Said Kouachi and 34-year-old Cherif Kouachi.

This theory has been reinforced by eyewitness accounts of the men shouting "Allahu Akbar". The designer who was forced to let the assailants in says they told her they were with al-Qaeda, while, according to AFP, the police claim that one of the killers remarked: "We have avenged the prophet."

Avenge the prophet

Why Prophet Muhammad would need anyone to "avenge" him is beyond me.

The prophet endured far more mockery, humiliation, insult and rejection during his lifetime without needing or ordering hitmen to defend his honour than that meted out by a group of equal-opportunity French cartoonists who despise and satirise all forms of organised religion.

Even if, like with Anders Breivik in Norway, the perpetrators turn out not to be linked to Islamist groups, the collateral damage to French and European Muslims has already been done, despite one of the fallen police officers being a Muslim.

With the strength of the Front National in France, UKIP in Britain and other anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant currents across Europe, a popular or populist backlash is almost inevitable.

In neighbouring Germany, the thousands of Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamisation of the West (PEGIDA) who have turned out to rallies, though still small enough to be labelled a "flop", has set alarm bells ringing to the extent that strong counter protests have taken place.

Like Muslims who fantasise about an ahistorical caliphate, conservative Europeans who dream of a bygone utopia of a Europe uncontaminated by Islam or immigration, miss the reality that the "Islamisation of the West" occurred centuries ago.

Islamic civilisation is so hard-wired into Europe's cultural, social and intellectual DNA that it would be impossible to expunge its influence. The same applies in the other direction, in light of Christendom's and the West's powerful influence on Arab and Islamic society.

In addition to the philosophy, science, literature and art of the Muslim world which profoundly shaped the European Renaissance, Islamic culture had some far more unexpected and surprising influences on western civilisation.

Unsung culture

One man in particular, for whom no statues or memorials stand anywhere in Europe and very few westerners have heard of, is possibly the most unsung cultural, style and musical icon in European history.

In the ninth century, Ziryab, Cordoba's most sought-after hipster, brought into vogue the idea of seasonal fashions, steering history's catwalk towards the fashion slavery of the 21st century.

This Sultan of Style also added a fifth pair of strings to the Arab "oud", paving the way to the European lute, which would become the modern guitar.

He also introduced Europe to the idea of dining etiquette, from table cloths and crystal decanters to the three-course meal.

Fashion, fine food and rhythm are not what Europeans tend to associate with Muslims or Islam today. Instead, they are haunted by images of fundamentalists, not fun-loving eccentrics, and fanatics, not fans of refined culture.

As someone who is well aware of the destructive influence of violent Islamism in the Middle East, I can, at a certain level, sympathise with fears in the West over radicalisation. But Islamic extremism is mostly a threat to Muslim societies, not to Europe, as a minority has never, in history, imposed its will on a majority, except in the form of a military conqueror.

This exaggerated sense of threat can be seen in the enormous hysteria in segments of the media and among some politicians regarding the small trickle of European jihadists who have gone to fight in Syria. Although one gets the impression that Europe has sent forth a veritable Islamic army to the Levant, the real number is around 3,000 from across the continent, including the dead and returned, according to an estimate by Gilles de Kerchove, the EU's anti-terrorism chief.

While it is important to be vigilant and to find effective ways to deal with the threat posed by returning fighters, society must steer clear of stigmatising Europe's already marginalised and distrusted Muslim communities.

This is because it is unfair to blame an entire group for the behaviour of a tiny minority and it is also counterproductive, as marginalisation is a significant, but not the only, factor in radicalisation.

In addition, the demonisation of minorities is what nurtures the truly threatening radicals in Europe's midst; the far-right and neo-Nazis. Since the end of World War II, Western Europe has worked consciously to build and celebrate diversity.

Despite its weaknesses and failings, Europe needs to cherish, build and strengthen its multicultural experiment.

Khaled Diab is an award-winning Egyptian-Belgian journalist, writer and blogger. He is the author of Intimate Enemies: Living with Israelis and Palestinians in the Holy Land. He blogs at http://www.chronikler.com.

The views expressed in this article are the author's own and do not necessarily reflect Al Jazeera's editorial policy.