A good deal?

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rubato
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A good deal?

Post by rubato »

Needs more time to digest.

http://www.vox.com/2015/4/2/8337347/iran-deal-good

This is an astonishingly good Iran deal

Updated by Max Fisher on April 2, 2015, 8:48 p.m. ET @Max_Fisher max@vox.com


When Aaron Stein was studying nuclear non-proliferation at Middlebury University's Monterey graduate program, the students would sometimes construct what they thought would be the best possible nuclear inspection and monitoring regimes.

Years later, Stein is now a Middle East and nuclear proliferation expert with the Royal United Services Institute. And he says that the Iran nuclear framework agreement, announced on Thursday, look an awful lot like those ideal hypotheticals he'd put together in grad school.

"When I was doing my non-proliferation training at Monterey, this is the type of inspection regime that we would dream up in our heads," he said. "We would hope that this would be the way to actually verify all enrichment programs, but thought that would never be feasible."

"If these are the parameters by which the [final agreement] will be signed, then this is an excellent deal," Stein concluded.

The framework nuclear deal establishes only the very basics; negotiators will continue to meet to try to turn them into a complete, detailed agreement by the end of June. Still, the terms in the framework, unveiled to the world after a series of late- and all-night sessions, are remarkably detailed, and almost astoundingly favorable to the United States.

Like many observers, I doubted in recent months that Iran and world powers would ever reach this stage; the setbacks and delays had simply been too many. Now, here we are, and the terms are far better than expected. There are a number of details left to be worked out, including one very big unresolved issue that could potentially sink everything. This is not over. But if this framework does indeed become a full nuclear deal in July, it would be a huge success and a great deal.
Iran gives up the bulk of its nuclear program in these terms

Iran's then-President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad looks over centrifuges at the nuclear facility at Natanz (Photo by the Office of the Presidency of the Islamic Republic of Iran via Getty)

Iran's then-President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad looks over centrifuges at the nuclear facility at Natanz (Photo by the Office of the Presidency of the Islamic Republic of Iran via Getty)

The framework deal requires Iran to surrender some crucial components of its nuclear program, in part or even in whole. Here are the highlights:

Iran will give up about 14,000 of its 20,000 centrifuges
Iran will give up all but its most rudimentary, outdated centrifuges: its first-generation IR-1s, knock-offs of 1970s European models, are all it gets to keep. It will not be allowed to build or develop newer models.
Iran will give up 97 percent of its enriched uranium: it will hold on to only 300 kilograms of its 10,000 kilogram stockpile in its current form.
Iran will destroy or export the core of its plutonium plant at Arak, and replace it with a new core than cannot produce weapons-grade plutonium. It will ship out all spent nuclear fuel.

Iran would simply not have much of its nuclear program left after all this.

A shorthand that people sometimes use to evaluate the size of Iran's nuclear program is its "breakout time." If Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei woke up tomorrow morning and decided to kick out all of the inspectors and set his entire nuclear program toward building a nuclear warhead — to "break out" to a bomb — right now it would take him two or three months. Under the terms of the framework, his program would be so much smaller that it would take him an entire year to build a single nuclear warhead.

These terms are not abject surrender. Iran is allowed to keep a small nuclear program, and it won some concessions of its own. For example, what little uranium enrichment is allowed will be done at Iran's facility at Natanz — a hardened, reinforced-concrete structure that was once used for covert enrichment and that the US had hoped to close.

Iran will also be allowed to do some research at another hardened facility the US had wanted to close, at Fordow, though the research is restricted and will be barred from using fissile material. These are not big concessions, and they matter mostly for their symbolic value, but it's something.

Still, when you look at many of the specifics laid out in the framework, the hard numbers and timetables and the detailed proscriptions, those all tend to be quite favorable to the United States.
The core issue that the framework really nails

IAEA nuclear inspectors at Iran's nuclear facility at Natanz in 2014 (KAZEM GHANE/AFP/Getty)

IAEA nuclear inspectors at Iran's nuclear facility at Natanz in 2014 (KAZEM GHANE/AFP/Getty)

Even though the agreement is only a framework, the summary released on Thursday goes into striking detail on an issue that was always going to be among the most crucial: inspections.

Whatever number of centrifuges Iran has or doesn't have, whatever amount of uranium it's allowed to keep or forced to give up, none of it matters unless inspectors have enough authority to hold Tehran to its end of the deal — and to convince the Iranians that they could never get away with cheating. To say that the US got favorable terms here would be quite an understatement; the Iranians, when it comes to inspections, practically gave away the farm.

"I would give it an A," Stein said of the framework. When I asked why: "Because of the inspections and transparency."

There are two reasons that inspections are so important. The first is that super-stringent inspections are a deterrent: if the Iranians know that any deviation is going to be quickly caught, they have much less incentive to try to cheat, and much more incentive to uphold their side of the deal.

The second is that, if Iran were to try a build a nuclear weapon now, it likely wouldn't use the material that's already known to the world and being monitored. Rather, the Iranians would secretly manufacture some off-the-books centrifuges, secretly mine some off-the-books uranium, and squirrel it all away to a new, secret underground facility somewhere. That would be the only way for Iran to build up enough of an arsenal such that, by the time the world found out, it would be too late to do anything about it.

Really robust inspections would be the best way stop that from happening. They would prevent Iran from sneaking off centrifuges or siphoning away uranium that could be used to build an off-the-grid nuclear weapons program, without the world finding out.

The inspections issue has not gotten much political attention. When I spoke to Jeffrey Lewis, the director of the East Asia Nonproliferation Program at Middlebury's Monterey Institute of International Studies, on Tuesday before the framework was announced, he seemed worried that negotiators would not focus on it much. Rather, overwhelming political focus in Washington and Tehran on issues like Iran's number of allowed centrifuges seemed likely to push inspections from the top priorities.

Lewis suggested that a top item on his wish-list would be inspections so robust that inspectors don't just get to visit enrichment sites like Natanz and Fordow, but also centrifuge factories. That, he said, "would be a big achievement."

Sure enough, come Thursday, Lewis got his wish, and then some: centrifuge factory inspections is one of the terms in the framework, and it's pretty robust. For the next 20 years, inspectors would have "continuous surveillance at Iran's centrifuge rotors and bellows production and storage facilities."

"I was shocked to read that they got them to agree to let us walk around their centrifuge production facilities. That's amazing," Stein said.

It's not just centrifuge factories. Inspectors will have access to all parts of Iran's nuclear supply chain, including its uranium mines and the mills where it processes uranium ore. Inspectors will also not just monitor but be required to pre-approve all sales to Iran of nuclear-related equipment. This provision also applies to something called "dual-use" materials, which means any equipment that could be used toward a nuclear program.

"The inspections and transparency on the rotors, and the bellows, and the uranium mines is more than I ever thought would be in this agreement," Stein added. [see link]

yrs,
rubato

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Lord Jim
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Re: A good deal?

Post by Lord Jim »

Well, that article is about as Polyannaish an interpretation as one can imagine...

I approach this with a very high degree of skepticism...

Especially in light of how the last deal this Administration signed off on to keep a rogue regime in check worked out:

Syria "systematically" using chemical weapons

December 3, 2014, 8:18 PM

At the Hague Wednesday, the U.S. accused the Syrian regime of continuing to use chemical weapons on civilians as recently as September, despite claims that it has fully destroyed its stockpile as required under a 2013 U.N. treaty. The Obama administration frequently cites that U.S.-Russia brokered deal as a major foreign policy success, in part because the diplomatic agreement helped avert U.S. military strikes triggered by a sarin gas attack that killed hundreds of civilians outside Damascus.

Yet the Syrian regime has not been completely disarmed of that lethal cache, Undersecretary of State Rose Gottemoeller told members of the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW.)

"Now there is compelling evidence that Syria continues to use chemical weapons systematically and repeatedly," Gottemoeller said.

In her prepared remarks, Gottemoeller laid out "key findings" from OPCW investigators which indicate that the regime used chemical weapons in attacks against opposition-controlled towns in northern Syria during April and May of this year and again in August and September. Eyewitness reports of regime helicopters indicate that the Syrian government carried these attacks out.

She also pointed to "serious concerns" that the OPCW has been unable to verify whether Syria has declared all of its chemicals, munitions and facilities associated with its weapons program.[You mean when you count on the crooks to tell you where their meth labs are they lie? Shocking...] The U.S. is "profoundly skeptical", Gottemoeller said, of Syrian claims that no records exist to corroborate the declaration that they have made.

"Indeed, chemical weapons capabilities may very well remain in the hands of the Syrian government," she said.

As for the ongoing inquiry into the weapons that Syria has publicly declared, U.S. Ambassador to the OPCW Robert Mikulak said more monitoring is needed. He said that the destruction of 12 weapons production facilities is "limping along" and is now significantly behind schedule.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-syste ... l-weapons/
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Crackpot
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Re: A good deal?

Post by Crackpot »

Well it was successful insofar as it stopped them from using "high tech" chemical weapons. So it was a victory in fact if not in practice
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Lord Jim
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Re: A good deal?

Post by Lord Jim »

it was a victory in fact if not in practice
Is that a John Kerry quote? It sure sounds like one... 8-)
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rubato
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Re: A good deal?

Post by rubato »

The Republicans blocked Obama's preferred, and much more vigorous, actions against Syria. If there is a failure it is theirs.


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Econoline
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Re: A good deal?

Post by Econoline »

Everyone (well, everyone in the U.S., anyway) seems to forget that these negotiations were not just between Iran and the U.S. but rather between Iran on one side and the U.S., the U.K., France, Germany, China, and Russia (the P5+1--the 5 Permanent Members of the U.N. Security Council plus Germany--NONE of whom wants to see a nuclear-armed Iran) on the other side.

As the article points out, the agreement allows for a very robust and intrusive regime of inspection and verification so that part is excellent. (And that--combined with the fact that Iran has already felt the effect of the sanctions, knows they could get worse, desperately wants to get them lifted, and would desperately want to prevent them from being reimposed and/or strengthened--seems like it goes a long way toward discouraging any backsliding on their part.)

I'm cautiously optimistic at this point.
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Lord Jim
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Re: A good deal?

Post by Lord Jim »

Am I the only one who sees how ridiculous this is?

You've got a deal between "the cops", (the US and the well meaning ostensibly responsible Western European Countries) and two Mafia Families (the PRC and Putin's Russia) making a deal with a third Mafia Family... (The rogue state in Iran...) counting on the third Mafia Family to be standup in an agreement...

And you really think that's going to work? :roll: :lol: :loon

I saw the other day where Kerry was bragging about how we now have some sort of super secret powerful control radio mechanisms that will prevent the Iranians from enriching uranium to bomb strength without our knowing about it...

Thank God the Iranian's are so stupid they can't figure out how to thwart that.... :roll:

(And of course those super secret powerful radio control seals are only going on the uranium locations we know about...)

And thank God the Iranians are now going to be completely honest with us about their nuclear bomb development program and not try to hide anything from us... (like they did before...)

No matter how good a deal might look on paper, the fact of the matter is this:

The current Iranian Regime is determined to develop a nuclear bomb;...full stop...

They will lie, cheat and steal to further that objective...they will do anything they have to in order to achieve that objective, because that is what they do....that is their objective...

They will have the AEIA inspectors chasing their UN tails, and get themselves off of the UN and other international sanctions, but they will still pursue the development of a nuclear bomb...relentlessly and without interruption...

Anything they agree to, they only agree to because they are certain they can get around it and continue to develop a nuclear bomb...

This is not rocket surgery...

Because that's what they're about, that is their intention, and ultimately only the United States can prevent them from achieving it...and that will require absolute resolute determination on our part; and absolute resolute determination ain't what this Administration's about...

The one and only thing that ultimately changes this dynamic, is regime change in Iran...and that will take time, but that is what we should be committed to...

But this Administration hasn't got the belly for that...
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Lord Jim
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Re: A good deal?

Post by Lord Jim »

rubato wrote:The Republicans blocked Obama's preferred, and much more vigorous, actions against Syria. If there is a failure it is theirs.


yrs,
rubato
LMAO :lol:

Geez ma knees rube, are you living in an alternative time line? :lol:

House Speaker John Boehner will support strike on Syria


House Speaker John Boehner plans to vote to approve a measure authorizing U.S. military action against Syria, the Ohio Republican said after a meeting with President Barack Obama in the White House Tuesday.

“This is something that the United States and the country need to do. I’m going to support the president’s call for action,” Boehner said after the meeting with the president and other congressional leaders. "I believe that my colleagues should support this call for action."

In response to reports showing what the United States says is strong evidence that the Syrian government was responsible for a chemical attack that killed more than 1,000 civilians in August, Obama on Saturday said he would seek approval for a “limited” military strike in the region.

In a statement Tuesday, House Majority Leader Eric Cantor also said he would support Obama's call for action.

"I intend to vote to provide the President of the United States the option to use military force in Syria," Cantor said. "While the authorizing language will likely change, the underlying reality will not. America has a compelling national security interest to prevent and respond to the use of weapons of mass destruction, especially by a terrorist state such as Syria, and to prevent further instability in a region of vital interest to the United States."
http://news.yahoo.com/house-speaker-joh ... 39715.html

Of course none of this should even have been necessary, because the POTUS had the authority under The War Powers Act to take this action without specific congressional authorization, but President Obama lacked the testicular fortitude to act unilaterally...

Sadly, a lack of testicular fortitude has been a defining characteristic of this Presidency in foreign affairs...

Mr. Obama was so "hell bent for leather" to "not be George W. Bush" and not engage in what he perceived as Bush's "over reactions", that he has responded to Mr. Bush's actions with an unequal and disproportionate under reaction...

And our national reputation and interests suffer interminably from it...From "JV Team" ISIS" to Ukraine...

At every point of the compass, US interests are circling the drain...

This man has succeeded in making himself the greatest foreign policy disaster for this country since Jimmy Carter...

And that ain't easy...
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Re: A good deal?

Post by Lord Jim »

Barack Obama wanted to be remembered as the President who ended two wars...

Instead he's going to be remembered as the President who failed to keep US residual forces in Iraq when they were needed, and dithered so hopelessly about who to support in Syria that a nihilistic murderous cult now controls large swaths of both countries...

With 3000 European foreign fighters to boot...

And don't even get me started on Yemen... :roll:
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Re: A good deal?

Post by Econoline »

So basically your view is that no deal is possible and that a nuclear-armed Iran is inevitable? (Oh, and using the "Mafia Family" metaphor which you brought up, any two real Mafia families would absolutely be doing their best to keep a new family from gaining power.)

Also, if the other 5 nations agree to the deal and the U.S. goes it alone...how well do you think that will work out? As I said before regarding the letter from the 47 GOP traitors, do we really want to be promulgating the notion that the U.S. is a nation which can't be trusted?

And BTW--it was the Bush Administration which failed to negotiate an extension to the SOF agreement with Iraq...or are you saying that Obama should have continued the deployment as an armed occupation without the consent of the Iraqi government (a government which the Bush administration put in power)?
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Lord Jim
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Re: A good deal?

Post by Lord Jim »

are you saying that Obama should have continued the deployment as an armed occupation without the consent of the Iraqi government
No, I'm not saying that...

I'm saying that he could have stood up to that idiot al-Maliki and used our considerable influence (financial and military) in Iraq at the time to compel an SOF agreement...

We could have stopped that moron from de-constructing the relationships that were built with the Sunni tribal leadership and the professional officer corp that was built up in the Iraqi military (a relationship and command structure that was created by that flawed fellow, General David Petraeus)

We could have done that, if we'd had a President who put his foot down and insisted, rather than having a President who was delighted to get out of an engagement that he thought would make him look good...

We also could have had a President who brought maximum support to The Free Syrian Army in the early days of "The Arab Spring" long before "Al Qaeda In Iraq" (the forerunner of ISIS) gained a stronghold there...

As every single one of his foreign policy, military, and national security advisers advised him to do...(including Hillary Clinton....)

But we haven't had that President...

Instead we've had a President who plays "The Melancholy Dane" who indulges in endless navel gazing and temporizing, and wonders endlessly about whether or not he should "do" anything... :roll:

Mr. Obama needs to stop worrying about "not being George W. Bush" and instead focus on The Oath he took to "Preserve, Protect and Defend"...

ETA:
So basically your view is that no deal is possible and that a nuclear-armed Iran is inevitable?
No, I'm saying that no deal is possible, and a nuclear-armed Iran is impermissible...

But I have no problem with doing what they're doing...

Pretending that we're reaching a deal...

The best we can do (if we are going to avoid military action, which may not in the final analysis be avoidable, but it would be best if we could) is to continue to turn the screws on them financially until they have a regime we can deal with that does not view the development of a nuclear weapon as its top priority...

A nuclear-armed Iran (particularly under the present regime) isn't "inevitable"...

It's unacceptable...
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Big RR
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Re: A good deal?

Post by Big RR »

so Jim, what you're saying is we should have had a president who agreed to sacrifice more American lives to keep a "moron" in power and blindly followed the FSA despite its insistence on installing sharia law in areas it controlled? Personally, I'm gald to see we have a president who didn't blindly do either of those things.

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Lord Jim
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Re: A good deal?

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so Jim, what you're saying is we should have had a president who agreed to sacrifice more American lives to keep a "moron" in power and blindly followed the FSA despite its insistence on installing sharia law in areas it controlled?
No, I'm pretty sure I'm not saying that...

I'm not in favor of Presidents "blindly" doing anything...Or "blindly" not doing anything...

I was in favor of a prudent and rational course, given the circumstances...
I'm gald to see we have a president who didn't blindly do either of those things.
I would say that Obama has acted with an enormous amount of blindness...willful blindness...

And it's worked out splendidly, hasn't it?
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Big RR
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Re: A good deal?

Post by Big RR »

Splendidly? No. But if it saved a few lives of our troops, it was worth it IMHO.

ETA: What I am saying is, the lives of our young men and women are far too precious to be squandered on the support of the least objectionable side, whether it's Malawi or the FSA. People are free to choose their own paths, but they should not expect to jump and support a less brutal and idiotic thug just because we believe g side is worse; it was wrong when we did it years ago in our quest to oppose any regime even left leaning (lest they be lost to the communists) and it is wrong now. There may be a rare time when our hand is forced, but you seem to think it is forced every time.

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Re: A good deal?

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

No one (least of all this deal) talks about the North Korean ties to Iran and the nukes.

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