Fair play to him and that, but

[Gob]

this is idiocy..

A campaign is under way to have the Catholic priest who stayed on RMS Titanic instead of fleeing on a lifeboat made a saint.



Father Thomas Byles, of St Helen's Church, Chipping Ongar, Essex, boarded the ship at Southampton to attend his younger brother's wedding in New York. But when it sank in 1912 he twice refused to join a lifeboat and instead remained with passengers to pray.

The current priest at St Helen's Church said Father Byles should be canonised.

Father Byles, educated in Fleetwood, Lancashire and Oxford, had been rector at St Helen's for eight years when he died. He had performed mass for second and third class passengers on board the ship, most notably on the morning of the tragedy. His sermon alluded to prayers and sacraments being spiritual lifeboats when in danger from the spiritual shipwreck of temptation.

His actions before perishing with 1,500 others aboard the Titanic were praised by Pope Pius X.

Father Graham Smith, current priest of St Helen's, said: "He's an extraordinary man who gave his life for others. "We need, in very old parlance, to raise him to the altar which means that the Vatican will recognise him as a martyr of the church. "We are hoping and praying that he will be recognised as one of the saints within our canon."

To be canonised - made a saint - at least two miracles must be attributed to the intercession of a candidate.

A phenomenon is accepted by the Holy See as a miracle once certified by doctors as having no medical explanation. Father Smith said: "We hope people around the world will pray to him if they are in need and, if a miracle occurs, then beatification and then canonisation can go forward."

[Lord Jim]

I had no idea you had such concern about who The Church canonizes as a saint...

Thinking of joining?

[MajGenl.Meade]

We hope people around the world will pray to him if they are in need

Hence, the protestant church which believes in praying to God, not some sinful man.

[Big RR]

Meade--I think the catholic practice is not praying to the dead person and asking them for a specific thing/result per se, but asking them to pray for you (or to intercede on your behalf). In that way, I don't think it is all that much different from that of many congregations, catholic and protestant, who ask for members to pray for someone who is ill or suffering. Personally, I don't think it makes all that much difference, an omnipotent/omniscient god can hear the prayer/need of one as well as that of thousands, but I cannot see that it's anything inherently bad. True, there is a difference between communicating with the living and the dead, but protestant teaching generally state that those who died went to heaven (or at least many did, some may sleep until the second coming according to some denominations) and continue to live still, so those who purport to communicate with the dead to make this request are (hopefully) addressing those who are alive.

Do you see asking a dead person to pray for you as theologically different from asking a living one to do the same?

[MajGenl.Meade]

Yes

[BoSoxGal]

For many people belief in the afterlife includes the comforting belief that their dearly departed loved ones can look after them from Heaven. Isn't that just a logical extension of any belief in an individual identity remaining at anther plane of existence after death?

[MajGenl.Meade]

Maybe. I'm imagining heavenly Osmonts walking about saying "I hear live people".

But that's not what the protestant faith teaches (except in those huggy soppy moments when no-one wants to be all theological). There is only one intercessor - Jesus (who of course is God anyway). No-one stands blocking things between man and God when it comes to communication. 1 Timothy 2:5 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" That Paul - always reminding us that Issa/Yeshua was our human as well as our divine savior and that we pray to God in the name of our saviour

Addressing prayers TO Jesus is kind of iffy IMO - he said to pray to the Father. I think it's best to just say "LORD" and let the three-in-one sort it out.

I don't believe there's anyone up there (other than God) capable of hearing us or able to help us and that praying TO dead people is not taught by Jesus, either in word or deed . Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord” but that may be dealing specifically with necromancy - not quite the same thing.

Praying FOR dead people... well, the jury's out on that one but my vote is "no". It runs contrary to the biblical teachings that death on this earth is the end of "making good"... the die is cast.

So I'm a "pray to the Lord for the living" kind of pedant

[Big RR]

But would you ask a living person to pray for you and, if so, why?

ETA: And as for speaking to the dead, did not the disciples present at the transfiguration speak to Moses and Elijah? while we can quibble about whether Elijah ever died, we do have OT accounts that Moses did, so Jesus participated with Peter and a couple of others (John and James) in talking with the dead.

[BoSoxGal]

I ask living people to pray for me all the time - I did so when I was a believer, and I still do so now that I am a skeptic.

I figure it can't hurt, and I believe in the power of positive energy, whether there is a God involved or not.

[Big RR]

Well BSG, I guess that's my question to Meade; most mainstream protestant denominations routinely ask others to pray for someone. Indeed, some of the more charismatic protestant denominations have prayer services where everyone joins in prayer for someone. I don't completely understand it, as I said above (but don't see it hurts anything), but it does not appear to be taboo or sacrilegious.

Now, it also doesn't appear communicating with the dead is verboten either--at least is the example at the transfiguration is looked at. Reported in the gospels, Jesus participated in a conversation with the disciples present and Moses (who we know was dead) and Elijah (who may have dies in his flaming chariot on the way to heaven or not--we really can't say). As you say, it's just a logical extension of the belief that the dead live on.

Which then brings us to whether asking someone who died to pray for you is somehow different from asking someone alive to do the same. I can't see that it is, but Meade has stated he sees a difference. Of course, if someone was praying to a dead person to heal them, that would be different (but so would going to a living person to seek some sort of supernatural healing). But a husband praying to his dead wife "Make sure that you let god know I'm ready to come whenever I'm called (and maybe ask him to make it soon)" is not asking for supernatural information--just a prayer from her on his behalf.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I don't believe I was addressing harmless nattering to nobody. S'fine. What the Roman church (who cite the transfiguration as their defense too, BTW) does is create new mediators between man and God where the Bible clearly states there is only one. Mary isn't a mediator and neither are the saints nor yet the fledgling saints that Rome recommends praying TO. Not just asking them to pass on a message like a telephone but actually praying to them for their action. This nice man who died on the Titanic isn't going to make any miracles happen. Although miracles will be concocted as necessary (see every other Roman saint).

As to the transfiguration, Jesus neither prayed TO Moses and Elijah, nor did he recommend that anyone else should do so. The disciples did not speak to them at all, nor they to the disciples. In case necromancy rears its ugly head, it doesn't appear that Jesus summoned up these two folks either. The understanding is that God caused them to appear as highly potent symbols of Jesus' greater glory than that of the patriarch and the prophet.

So, again - harmless musings directed at dear departed auntie Gladys are one thing (altho' what kind of believer thinks that God isn't listening to them but will give an ear to auntie beggars belief) - declaring that Auntie Gladys is a specially empowered mediator between man and God is something entirely different. Each to their own.

[Gob]

Or, to put it much more succinctly; religion, it's all a load of bollocks.

[rubato]

"Gentlemen and Priests: Lifeboats are to your right and there is an open bar, drinks on us tonight, to your left."

And nature took its course.

[Big RR]

As to the transfiguration, Jesus neither prayed TO Moses and Elijah, nor did he recommend that anyone else should do so

True enough, but the accounts state that he spoke to them, which is, in reality, what prayer is, is it not?

The disciples did not speak to them at all, nor they to the disciples. In case necromancy rears its ugly head

well OK, they did not directly speak to them, but they heard what they said to Jesus and recognized them as Moses and ELijah; otherwise the account would not have included any statement that they appeared nor what was said. Is this necromancy--I would think it akin to one hearing the spirits speak to a medium.

it doesn't appear that Jesus summoned up these two folks either

That is not mentioned so we don't know; but certainly Jesus was not averse to conversing with the dead--be it Jairus' daughter, the son of the widow, or Lazarus he called upon them to arise. Could not the same thing have happened here? Add to that the discussion of dead man speaking with dead Lazarus in the parable and we can see there is no real admonition by jesus against such converse.

Mediators? that has been the charge throughout history--but does it hold. My understanding is that catholics are taught to pray to saints (who are really persons that the church recognizes must be in heaven) and others who went before for prayers on their behalf. Indeed, one of the oldest such prayers, the Ave (Hail) Mary asks Mary to pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our deaths (dona pro nobis pecatroribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae--the earlier Latin text). An intercessor or someone akin to the congregation praying for a member who is ill? I'm honestly not certain.

Now there are other examples of such of the RC recognition of mediators--like priests in the act of confession (reconciliation), but I'm not certain asking the dead to pray for anyone places them in a similar position. Indeed, even ascribing miracles to the intercession of a potential saint is used only to assure that the church believes they are in heaven and awaiting for the second coming (which is a doctrine I have heard among many protestant denominations as well), not that they are imbued with any special power (as one priest explained it to me, anyone who gets into heaven is a saint--we canonize we are certain are there). My understanding is that the RC church teaches that if one dies in a state of grace one enters heaven--if not the sins one bears will determine what happens--many protestants teach that some will enter heaven, the rest await the trial at the second coming.

[MajGenl.Meade]

True enough, but the accounts state that he spoke to them, which is, in reality, what prayer is, is it not?

Oh, now you're just playing with me. Naughty chap. I guess if you really think that "speaking = praying" then Gob must be the holiest of rollers there ever was. On your 2nd, glad you agree with me. It's not necromancy if God does it - after all, he lives with the formerly-dead.

That is not mentioned so we don't know; but certainly Jesus was not averse to conversing with the dead--be it Jairus' daughter, the son of the widow, or Lazarus he called upon them to arise. Could not the same thing have happened here? Add to that the discussion of dead man speaking with dead Lazarus in the parable and we can see there is no real admonition by jesus against such converse.

If you seriously characterize as "conversing with the dead" a command to "get up" then .... well... then then. Regardless, resurrecting a dead person so that they are alive on earth is not at all the same as having a conversation with 'dead' people who remain 'dead' (to this world) afterwards. And the parable of the dead rich man speaking to the dead Lazarus is (a) uh... a parable and (b) a conversation that didn't involve one or two living people. (Just to be clear, I'm using dead to mean "having ceased mortal function on this earth" and living to mean "still alive and mortal on this earth")

As to the rest, Rome does as Rome does.

[Big RR]

Oh, now you're just playing with me. Naughty chap. I guess if you really think that "speaking = praying"

Playing? By no means. But unless you define prayer as a conversation with god (in which case one could not pray to any person, living or dead), I would think any form of communication would be a prayer, including speaking. Indeed, the term "prayer" is often used legally as a formal request for something (like a prayer for relief), but I have never been taught that one must ask for something in order for it to be a prayer; thanking the lord for a beautiful day or something lese could well be a prayer.

Regardless, resurrecting a dead person so that they are alive on earth is not at all the same as having a conversation with 'dead' people who remain 'dead' (to this world) afterwards.

Two points--yes there are differences as well as similarities between the two types of conversation. And secondly, raising from the dead is also condemned as necromancy in the same way that converse with the dead is by religious orthodoxy.

Rome does as Rome does

Indeed.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Ok you missed the first point. You wrote, "speech is, in reality, what prayer is".

No it isn't. Speech in reality is speech - Gob goes on and on and on speaking but he isn't praying. What you meant was that prayer is often spoken aloud, a vacuous statement if ever there was one.

But to assert that "Jesus spoke to them" might mean "Jesus prayed to them" is absolute nonsense (leaving aside whether it's Jesus or anyone else). Hate speech is often spoken out loud. So your argument can just as well be used to say "Jesus spoke to them" means "Jesus made a hate speech to them". Jokes are spoken. So we are free to imagine then that Jesus was telling dirty jokes?

The disciples asked Jesus how they should pray... "Our Father..." he begins. Seems clear to me. He didn't say, "Oh how about 'Our departed auntie Joan..." All prayer, according to the pattern of Jesus, consists of at least one of these elements and nothing else: adoration (of God), confession (of sins, to God), thanks (to God) and supplication (requests, to God). Not once does Jesus pray to anyone else but God - not once does he recommend praying to anyone else but God.

As to necromancy, how offensive to declare in any way that God breaks His own laws and commands, equating God with the worst of sinners. I'd expect that from an unbeliever.

[Big RR]

Well Meade, I guess we've reached the end of the debate cycle, and anything more would be a rehash of the same points. Just one last thing I wanted to point out--you equated talking with the dead with necromancy (not me) and I said raising people from the dead was traditionally treated that way as well. I in no way stated or suggested that god breaks any laws and commands, and personally think necromancy is a concept that should be discarded with witchcraft as being contrary to the law of god or making one the "worst of sinners" (the "witch of Endor" notwithstanding).

[MajGenl.Meade]

The trouble with quibbles.... I can't take credit for equating talking with the dead with necromancy. That's part of the dictionary definition. Sorry if your comment about necromancy/Moses/Elijah was misinterpreted up my end... I was trying to forestall an accusation of necromancy and then thought you were doing exactly that.

Anyhoo... you are right. Prayer is talking with God - that's what Jesus taught. I believe him. And yes, you were right again - prayer is not always asking for something (as I said, at least one of four elements is part of prayer and thanks is one). Praying TO another person is, IMO, just plain wrong - it's idolatry. About what one would expect from churches that worship graven images and make up all sorts of extra faith requirements not found in the Bible.

[wesw]

hence the protestant church. there is much in the catholic form of worship that seems to me to be in direct contradiction to jesus' teachings. from the fancy clothes to the praying to saints to intercede with god. the way to the father is thru me; in other words thru love and kindness.

there is much in the literal interpretation protestant crowd that doesn t jibe either. considering that jesus taught thru parable and metaphor, and even had to explain them to his disciples, and also knew that men would understand his teachings in different ways, if at all. he who has eyes, let him see, he who has ears, let him hear and all that.

it really is a book worth reading, no matter your faith or lack thereof. there be wisdom there. it didn t last thousands of years for nothing.