"An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

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Lord Jim
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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by Lord Jim »

Investigators have already reported the train rapidly accelerated just on the approach to the curve
As I understand it, it went from 70 to 106 in less than a minute...
The 32-year-old driver had called for stricter rail safety.
I've also seen a number of interviews with folks who have worked with this guy, (He's been an engineer with Amtrak for 5 years; prior to that he was a conductor, and before that a brakeman) and every single one of them praised him highly as a very responsible and professional engineer. He has absolutely no history of any irresponsible behavior (disciplinary action, complaints, etc.) whatsoever.

The combination of these two factors (the sudden rapid acceleration and the engineers reputation and record) have me leaning towards some sort of medical explanation. Either:

A medical condition that he wasn't aware of that came on suddenly that caused him to momentarily blackout and fall in such a way that he pushed the throttle to full; and then he recovered right before the crash, realized the situation he was in, so he hit the emergency brake...

Or the same situation being caused by the reported projectile, or his being struck by a shard of glass or shrapnel caused by the projectile....

This projectile possibility is, needless to say, extremely worrisome...

If it is verified to have happened, it is my very strong hope that it was some sort of freakish thing where somehow a rock got churned up and penetrated the window....(However if multiple trains had the same thing happen within a short time span it would seem to make that unlikely as the explanation...)

The alternative would be that there was some sick freak out there that night getting his jollies by taking pot shots at the engineer cab windows of trains...

And if that is true, it means he's still out there... :( :?
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Guinevere
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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by Guinevere »

rubato wrote:
Guinevere wrote:Oh we have it too, rube just hates lawyers. I assume his wife has had to deal with a malpractice claim or two....
In what year of law school do they teach "just make shit up"??? 2nd year? Third?

Reflects accurately on your amoral semi-profession.

Even Nurse-midwives have longer training, but then they do useful work.


yrs,
rubato
I rest my case.
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Guinevere
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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by Guinevere »

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/16/us ... ?referrer=
On Friday, Mr. Sumwalt said that the engineer, accompanied by his lawyer, had been open with investigators and had demonstrated a “very good working knowledge” of the proper procedures and speeds for the rail line, but that he did not remember the accident.

“He recalls ringing the train bell as he went through North Philadelphia Station, as required,” Mr. Sumwalt said. “He has no recollection of anything past that.”

Investigators said that Mr. Bostian had been “extremely” cooperative during his interview and that he had “reported no problems with his train handling.”

Two other conductors were on the train that night. A senior conductor is hospitalized, according to the safety board, and has not been interviewed.

A junior conductor was in the back of the train and reported that his radio was not working, so he was unable to hear the engineer, Mr. Sumwalt said. He told investigators he felt shaking, then two large impacts that dislodged seats.

Both conductors said they had confidence in the engineer, calling him “very professional."

Mr. Bostian had been on this route only for several weeks, investigators said, working five days a week. The derailment culminated what had already been a difficult day for him.




Tuesday afternoon, before the accident, Mr. Bostian was driving an Acela Express train from New York to Washington when the electronic signals malfunctioned, forcing him to carry out a long series of safety procedures, including slowing the train, said Karl Edler, the chairman of the Washington branch of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen and a longtime operator on the Northeast Corridor. Mr. Sumwalt confirmed the problem on that trip.

Mr. Bostian was able to pull safely into Washington using the signals he could see on the trackside, but he was 30 minutes behind schedule.

Because of the delay, Mr. Bostian only had an hour of rest, most of which was probably taken up by switching trains, filling out paperwork and doing equipment checks, Mr. Edler said.
So fatigued by the earlier delay + distracted by the projectile = simple (but tragic) human error?

And on Thursday, an injured Amtrak worker filed the first lawsuit against Amtrak in the derailment, charging reckless conduct and negligence.

As other passengers began to contact lawyers, legal experts said that a 1997 law passed by Congress would limit the amount of money they could receive for medical expenses and economic losses. The law set a $200 million cap on damages for passenger injuries or deaths in a single rail accident.

With eight people killed and scores injured, the claims could easily exceed $200 million. Paul R. Kiesel, a lawyer who represented victims in the 2008 Metrolink crash in California, said the money would not go far enough to compensate victims whose lives will never be the same.

“The cap will without question come into play, and those who were injured will undoubtedly receive a fraction of their actual damages — economic, medical, lost wages and otherwise,” he said.

Several lawyers in New York and Pennsylvania said victims of the derailment had contacted them. Philip Russotti, a lawyer whose firm has represented victims in recent rail accidents in New York, said the firm was planning to meet with two passengers from New York who sustained head injuries.
Those goddamned lawyers, at it again... In fact, they've probably been involved working for Amtrak too, directing the investigation and clean up, making sure certain evidence is retained and not discarded, working to get to the bottom of what happened. Such useless bloodsuckers. :roll:
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Lord Jim
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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by Lord Jim »

So fatigued by the earlier delay + distracted by the projectile = simple (but tragic) human error?
Well, he says he wasn't tired:
Bostian said he was not tired or ill on the day of the derailment. “He felt fully qualified and comfortable with his equipment,” Sumwalt said. “He demonstrated good working knowledge of the territory.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... -to-drive/

And a projectile that just whizzed past you, (as opposed to hitting you, or causing something else to hit you) could cause a distraction of a few seconds but not a full minute...

He also says he has no recollection of what was going on from shortly before the point that the acceleration began til right before he pulled the emergency brake...

So unless he's lying about not being tired and instead was so completely exhausted that he nodded off, (highly unlikely) the most likely explanation is that for some reason he blacked out (fainted, passed out, what ever you want to call it) for nearly a minute, and then came to.
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TIME FOR THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES

Post by RayThom »

Domestic terrorism? Let no stone go unturned. And the plot thickens:

"At that point, she heard the engineer, 32-year-old Brandon Bostian, talking by radio with the driver of another train from the Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (SEPTA).

The other driver...said he had reported to a train dispatcher that his windshield had been cracked by a projectile that he believed was either fired from a gun or thrown at his train...

The conductor told investigators that Bostian then replied that he believed his own New York-bound Amtrak train had been similarly struck... moments later that the Amtrak train began to round the curved section of track at twice the authorized speed and derailed in the city's Port Richmond neighborhood along the Delaware River, according to her account...

FBI agents would arrive on Friday night to examine a portion of the lower left-hand corner of the locomotive's battered windshield that appeared to have been cracked by a flying object of some type...

The Philadelphia Inquirer and other media outlets reported Friday that a third train, an Amtrak Acela, had also been hit by an unidentified projectile that cracked a window on one of the cars about five minutes before it entered the 30th Street station, citing an account of a passenger.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/ ... 8Z20150516
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Lord Jim
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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by Lord Jim »

I saw an interview this morning on CNN with a person who has some expertise about this, and she said that they have had a recurring problem in the area where this happened with kids, (I would say "juvenile delinquents") dropping rocks from overpasses on to trains, and that occasionally these rocks will hit the front cab windshield, but that they rarely penetrate the glass.

That having been said, she added that she thinks that it will probably be determined that these trains were shot at because of the third train that was hit. That was a side window and dropping rocks could not explain that, and since all of these events took place within a few minutes of each other it's very likely the same source was responsible for all three.

Of course if these trains were shot at, that doesn't necessarily mean that it was terrorism. If it was terrorism, you'd expect by now that somebody would have taken "credit"...

It could have been a Philly gang banger who was "showing off", it could have been a sick loner, it could have been some hothead who got loaded and decided to shoot at trains; there are a lot of possibilities...

But if shooting is what happened here, needless to say there should no effort spared to bring the perpetrator to justice...

They could do this again...

And of course with all the publicity there will also be the risk of twisted "copy cats" pulling the same thing... :?
Last edited by Lord Jim on Sun May 17, 2015 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by BoSoxGal »

Here's my theory:

This very conscientious and highly regarded engineer, newly traveling this route of track, was distracted by the report on the radio and the incident involving his own train being struck. Clearly he wasn't disabled by that striking, because he talked on the radio afterward. More likely, not so familiar with the route he's forgotten how close he is to a slow speed curve and in the process of examining the cab area/window shield to determine how/by what the train was struck, somehow he accelerated and when he looked up and realized where he was, he did his best to slow down using the emergency braking system.

Tragic human error.

A human error that is avoidable by the implementation of technology that has been available for decades, but which Amtrak has been too cheap to install. This very engineer has been posting about the issue for years on train-related discussion forums online.
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Joe Guy
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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by Joe Guy »

I don't know if it's true but I heard that the maximum speed the train is supposed to go on that route is 80 mph. If so, the problem would be more than the engineer not knowing where he was.

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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by Lord Jim »

newly traveling this route of track
Well, here's the problem with that theory:
He had driven the Northeast Corridor route between Washington and New York for about three years
http://www.wsj.com/articles/amtrak-engi ... 1431627406

And this article, when you read it in it's totality, raises another question:
Amtrak Engineer Brandon Bostian Had Passion for Trains

y Kris Maher
Updated May 14, 2015 9:05 p.m. ET
98 COMMENTS

Brandon Bostian, the 32-year-old engineer who was at the controls of an Amtrak train that crashed Tuesday, had a passion for the railroad and the job he has held since graduating from college, friends said Thursday.

“If you had seen him a week ago and talked to him, no matter what you talked about, you would have known that he loved trains and Amtrak and helping transport people from one place to another,”
said Matt Broffman, a friend who attended the University of Missouri with Mr. Bostian.

Mr. Bostian, who lives in Queens, N.Y., has become the focus of intense scrutiny since investigators said Wednesday that the train was going more than twice the 50-mile-an-hour speed limit as it entered a sharp turn, where it jumped the tracks. Eight people were killed and many of the 243 on board were hurt.

Mr. Bostian didn’t return a message left on his cellphone and there was no answer at his home Thursday. His lawyer, Robert Goggin, and representatives of Mr. Bostian’s union didn’t respond to requests for comment.

But Mr. Goggin told ABC News that his client can’t remember the crash and can’t explain what happened.

“He remembers driving the train, he remembers going to that area generally, [but] has absolutely no recollection of the incident or anything unusual,” Mr. Goggin said in an interview that aired Wednesday night.

The lawyer said Mr. Bostian suffered head injuries in the crash and needed 14 stitches.

Brandon Bostian, the 32-year-old engineer who was at the controls of an Amtrak train that crashed Tuesday, had a passion for the railroad and the job he has held since graduating from college, friends said Thursday.

“If you had seen him a week ago and talked to him, no matter what you talked about, you would have known that he loved trains and Amtrak and helping transport people from one place to another,” said Matt Broffman, a friend who attended the University of Missouri with Mr. Bostian.

Mr. Bostian, who lives in Queens, N.Y., has become the focus of intense scrutiny since investigators said Wednesday that the train was going more than twice the 50-mile-an-hour speed limit as it entered a sharp turn, where it jumped the tracks. Eight people were killed and many of the 243 on board were hurt.

Mr. Bostian didn’t return a message left on his cellphone and there was no answer at his home Thursday. His lawyer, Robert Goggin, and representatives of Mr. Bostian’s union didn’t respond to requests for comment.

But Mr. Goggin told ABC News that his client can’t remember the crash and can’t explain what happened.

“He remembers driving the train, he remembers going to that area generally, [but] has absolutely no recollection of the incident or anything unusual,” Mr. Goggin said in an interview that aired Wednesday night.

The lawyer said Mr. Bostian suffered head injuries in the crash and needed 14 stitches.

Mr. Bostian grew up outside Memphis in Bartlett, Tenn. Stefanie McGee, who worked with Mr. Bostian at the Bartlett Express newspaper from 2000 to 2001, said Mr. Bostian wrote about locomotives, buses and roads, among the news and sports he was required to cover.

Even vacations, she said, presented an opportunity to talk about trains. “He’d come back from a trip and his souvenir would be a train ticket or a subway map,” Ms. McGee said.

Ms. McGee, who is now city clerk for Bartlett, said she sent Mr. Bostian a birthday message in the past couple of weeks. “He’s a sweet guy with a super corny sense of humor,” she said. “The more puns there were, he loved it.”

Mr. Bostian graduated from the University of Missouri in 2006 with a bachelor’s degree in business administration, the school said.

Mr. Broffman, who was a member of the Acacia Fraternity along with Mr. Bostian, said his friend was thrilled to learn he had been hired by Amtrak. “Working for Amtrak was always his dream job,” Mr. Broffman said.

Mr. Bostian started as a conductor in 2006 and became an engineer in 2010, according to a profile on LinkedIn. He had driven the Northeast Corridor route between Washington and New York for about three years, said a person familiar with the matter. Nothing in his work history raised any immediate red flags or indicated a behavioral pattern that could shed light on the accident, this person said.

Jeff Kocar, who worked for Amtrak for 28 years in a variety of jobs, said he met Mr. Bostian around 2007 at a training facility in Wilmington, Del., and described him as a conscientious, dedicated employee. He said unlike some Amtrak employees, Mr. Bostian didn’t hide his affection for railroads.

“A lot of people don’t like to admit that it’s their hobby or they’re enthusiasts. They don’t want to be perceived as railroad geeks,” he said.

Neighbors who live in the same apartment building in the working-class section of Queens describe Mr. Bostian as a friendly man who enjoyed being an Amtrak engineer.

“He was happy with his job,” said Moresh Koya, who lives one floor above Mr. Bostian.

Mr. Koya, who said he had met Mr. Bostian at a dinner party, described him as a “very personable guy, very nice, responsible.”
I'm not reaching any conclusions here, but I think it's legitimate to raise as a question:

Could even a good and decent man, who had achieved his lifelong dream, be counted on to let people know about a medical condition that could take that dream away from him?

It's a fair question to ask....
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Crackpot
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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by Crackpot »

I wonder if he was injured by the projectile. I know from experience that you can take a bad blow to the head and not realize it.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Gob
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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by Gob »

Lord Jim wrote:
But if shooting is what happened here, needless to say there should no effort spared to bring the perpetrator to justice...
Ignore that. Go after the "conductor" before he gets "lawyered up," the bastard!
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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by wesw »

geez, let s wait and see before condemning anyone. I have heard all the statements and I don t have a clue as to what caused this wreck, except high speed.

for all we know someone, say the badly injured 3rd conductor, could've hit the engineer on the head, thrown the throttle open and caused the wreck. we don t know. I have had a severe concussion before, and tho you can function to a point, I darn sure wouldn t want to do an interview with the cops while I was living in a brain fog.

rube, I would imagine that the train can accelerate fairly rapidly, once it is already at 70mph

and didn t the engineer stay and help people until the first responders made him get medical treatment?

geez rube, I like to needle lawyers too, but just for fun, shits and giggles, you know...

I think you even pissed bigsky off a little

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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by Joe Guy »

Crackpot wrote:...I know from experience that you can take a bad blow to the head and not realize it.
That explains a lot... :D

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Lord Jim
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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by Lord Jim »

geez, let s wait and see before condemning anyone.
I'm not condemning anyone wes...nor reaching any conclusions...

I'm just tossing out logical possibilities...

And we all know what logical possibilities are like...

Everybody's got one... 8-)
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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Joe Guy wrote:
Crackpot wrote:...I know from experience that you can take a bad blow to the head and not realize it.
That explains a lot... :D
Especially if he doesn't realize it
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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by Joe Guy »

And all this time I thought it was his spellchecker....

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Crackpot
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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by Crackpot »

Who? what?
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by Scooter »

wesw wrote:geez rube, I like to needle lawyers too, but just for fun, shits and giggles, you know...

I think you even pissed bigsky off a little
The notion that someone who is availing themselves of their constitutional rights deserves derision or suspicion is an attitude that is usually espoused by those on the right. Rather odd that someone who regularly expresses concern about the erosion of civil rights at the hands of an overreaching government should even find it worthy of mention that a person facing a potential criminal investigation would seek legal counsel prior to cooperating with the authorities.
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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by wesw »

jim, I wasn t really talking about you....

scooter, I have gotten the impression that rube is a big fan of over reaching govt and erosion of civil rights...strange...

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Re: "An Absolute Disastrous Mess"

Post by BoSoxGal »

If the police were not so often either incompetent or crooked, innocent folks wouldn't so commonly be wrongfully convicted.

Given the scourge of wrongful conviction in our system, I can't imagine why any citizen would ever question another citizen's wise choice to consult legal counsel before talking with police.

In similar circumstances, no law enforcement officer would ever speak to police or internal affairs investigators without first speaking to union financed legal counsel.

So has this engineer. What is the problem? :shrug
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