Signs of sanity in the US emerging?

[MajGenl.Meade]

and it should conform to the teaching pattern of the particular Christian church to which one belongs

Many claim to be Christain but belong to no "church".
Are they less of a Christain than those that attend service at their desired meeting place? Even if they both follow the Christian teachings?

Maybe they are and maybe they ain't. So what?

[Crackpot]

You obviously missed the drift of rubatos post.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Who? Me?

[Crackpot]

Yep.

[MajGenl.Meade]

You could be right that he meant "Christian" when he wrote 'affiliation' and 'religion'. In which case, I'd disagree with the intent of what he wrote.

So you'd agree with me there, then?

[BoSoxGal]

So you believe non-congregants aren't really Christians, it seems.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Is it just me? I clearly wrote that IF rubato was intending to mean "Christians" then I DISAGREE with him.

If CP thinks I missed the drift of rubato's post, then he's concurring with my suggestion that perhaps I hadn't understood rubato's intent

Or you're just having me on.....

[Joe Guy]

Is it just me? I clearly wrote that IF rubato was intending to mean "Christians" then I DISAGREE with him.

OTOH maybe he did mean "Christian", in which case I still agree with him anyway. We've discussed it. A Christian follows God's Word, the Bible. Anyone who says "If there is a God...." isn't a Christian and my understanding of the Bible is that Christians are indeed to gather together for worship etc. It says it somewhere or other....

[MajGenl.Meade]

I changed my mind.

ETA... hmm, about agreeing with him. A couple of posts later I became convinced by Big RR and other(s) that rubato may not have had in mind the same thing as I do regarding "Christians". For example, I don't think part of the definition of "Christian" is "belonging to a church". I do think that fellowship is Biblical but recognize that hermits did (do) exist. I also have a hard time understanding why any follower of Christ would deny the authority of the scriptures.

[Lord Jim]

Well, we've been down this road many times before, but I'll give my view on this again... (Because it's pretty simple and doesn't take a long time to type... )

I believe that in order to be a Christian, one must believe two things:

First, they must believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ; not just that he was a "Prophet" (someone "inspired" by God, or with some sort of "special access" to God) or a "Great Teacher"...

(Many Jews and Muslims believe that; it doesn't make them Christians...)

Or that Jesus was a "really cool dude" (a line I got from Sean ) someone who is quoted in The Bible as saying things that they find laudable and praiseworthy, and morally valid...(there are plenty of non-Christians who believe that; even some Atheists... )

No, in order to qualify as a Christian one must believe that Jesus is God...God Made Man...

That would seem to be the minimal requirement for membership in the club, since that is the defining element of "Christianity", and its whole claim to legitimacy...

The second requirement would be belief in the The Truth Of the Resurrection....

If one accepts the first, then the second becomes easy; but it is the second that completes the validation of the first...

It seems to me that so long as one holds those two core beliefs; the uniqueness of Jesus as not merely a "prophet", or "teacher" or "cool dude", but as God Made Man, and The Truth Of The Resurrection, one can fairly call one self a Christian, whether they are a member of any organized denomination or not...

Beyond those two beliefs there are a wide divergence of views within Christianity...

Without those two beliefs, you don't have Christianity...

You have "Real Cool Dudeism"...

[Joe Guy]

Well... that's the LJ definition but the fact is that any person who believes in the teachings of Jesus Christ is a Christian.

Let me say it in LordJimese so you can understand...

A Reaganite is someone who believes in the teachings of Ronald Reagan.

Now substitute Jesus Christ for Ronald Reagan. See how it works?

Even a republican who has never been to Europe should be able to understand that....

[MajGenl.Meade]

...and that differs from what LJ said... how?

[wesw]

jesus certainly cared about the least among us as much as he cared about anyone, perhaps he even cared more for them, since they had the most need. he also cared for those who did not always do the right thing, tax collectors, harlots, romans, Samaritans, those possessed with legions of demons, even the lady living in sin.

sometimes those folks don t feel worthy of going into god s house, even tho they believe with all their heart, they are ashamed of their shortcomings, their weakness, their sin.

they may still gather in their twos and threes, in Jesus' name. they may still try to follow him as best they can. they may still be Christians. perhaps they have felt his love and know him and they still have faltered, perhaps that is the worst sin in their own mind, and they feel that they are less than they need to be.

I, for one, have made huge changes, and have been changed in profound ways, yet I still am weak in certain ways, and commit what I know are sins. I also have become much more kind and generous and empathetic to others. yet I still fall short of who I want , and need to be. I was forgiven and saw the light and the truth, yet I have trouble forgiving myself when I do not follow him as I should. that is the worst, I think, seeing the truth and still falling short. it is shameful and perhaps unforgivable.

empathy is the key, I think. jesus came as man so that he could understand us truly, I believe. he even died a horrible death to that end.

forgiving ourselves can be the hardest part. forgiving others is easy in comparison.

I stumbled upon a book, called The Robe, and that began me on my journey toward Christ and kindness and self forgiveness. it starts out as a shallow portrayal of the life of the elite, I almost dismissed it before I got to the good stuff, and it becomes , or it became for me, a guidebook to redemption. very substantive

wes


I do believe god created man, tho I don t pretend to be able to define god or jesus. I do believe in the resurrection, but don t pretend to understand it

[MajGenl.Meade]

sometimes those folks don t feel worthy of going into god s house, even tho they believe with all their heart, they are ashamed of their shortcomings, their weakness, their sin.

Pretty good post that. Theologically though, I'd have to disagree with the above point.

My understanding is that such people have not accepted God's forgiveness at all - in fact, they don't believe it is sufficient. In essence, they reject God. They do indeed think they must "forgive themselves" which of course is totally contrary to Christ's gospel and is found nowhere in the Bible.

It is precisely because one cannot forgive oneself (for sin) that one needs the forgiveness of God. If we could forgive ourselves, Christ died in vain. Many Christians I know glibly talk of forgiving themselves when what they really mean is letting go of that part of their ego which demands they must do the work of forgiveness. Perhaps it's evidence of failure to repent (which is required).

I'm not worthy to go into "God's house" (if that's what a church building is) through any merit on my part. I am worthy to go there because God considers me to be so - that is, He considers all of humanity worth dying for in order to save some. Too, the mere fact of church attendance doesn't make me or anyone else worthy - but it just might educate, elucidate and elevate those who do. It's supposed to do so.

[wesw]

I take your point.

for me, the wrongs that I ve done since (italics) accepting the grace and forgiveness, that I have truly been, given are the difficult ones to deal with.

I went, and was accepted into , the local Methodist church a few years ago, shortly after I began to follow Christ. my eventual baptism was very moving and important.

I did good things. built some things.

when I was going thru the methadone withdrawals, we stopped attending. me first, then holly and my daughter gradually stopped after a while. i think we all want to go back.

i was pretty much bedridden and very sick for about three months after stopping the meds. still haven t totally recovered. it was a long winter.

i went and talked to our pastor in the middle of it all. no secrets from her. when i changed i pretty much opened up every dark corner of myself to the world. i felt that it was necessary somehow.

anyway, i guess i need to just keep on, keepin' on and do better...

don t get me wrong, i wouldn t trade the last few years for anything. after i came to Christ, there was a definite destruction of the man i was, and it was very difficult, it broke me. invaluable tho, the truth hurts, it s true, but you have to face it. i thank god/jesus every day, almost....

[MajGenl.Meade]

I pray you succeed.

Still gonna take the piss out of ya, tho'

[wesw]

thanks meade.

once the piss is taken out, start on the vinegar....

[Lord Jim]

Now substitute Jesus Christ for Ronald Reagan.

As great an admirer of Mr. Reagan as I am, I would never make that substitution...

Nor would have Mr. Reagan...

[Big RR]

Jim--back to the OP, if someone self identifies as a Christian in a survey, would you accept that as an indication that they embrace at least some part of a Christian belief, which may be quite different from yours, and should still be counted among those in the US embracing a religious faith (or even a Christian faith)?

As I read rubato's comments, I think he wants to limit that number by requiring some other outward signs of the faith--attending church, tithing, membership in a particular denomination, etc. to be counted as a religious person, thereby inflating the numbers of atheists/agnostics/others with no religious belief on the surveys. IMHO, that makes no sense, as not everyone embraces religious faith the same way, but I think that is what rubato is trying to dispute..

[Lord Jim]

Jim--back to the OP, if someone self identifies as a Christian in a survey, would you accept that as an indication that they embrace at least some part of a Christian belief, which may be quite different from yours, and should still be counted among those in the US embracing a religious faith (or even a Christian faith)?

Yes, certainly...

Polls measure what they measure; that's certainly going to give you an acceptable overall indication...

As I read rubato's comments, I think he wants to limit that number by requiring some other outward signs of the faith--attending church, tithing, membership in a particular denomination, etc. to be counted as a religious person, thereby inflating the numbers of atheists/agnostics/others with no religious belief on the surveys.

We have a Bingo...

I think you've definitely nailed the agenda...