pope francis

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Big RR
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Re: pope francis

Post by Big RR »

don't know how to read Acts (and more particularly Paul's letters which preceded the gospels and Acts in date of writing and conclude that there was no leadership in the early Christian church.
Of course there was leadership, I've said that several times. But what there was not was a system of ordained clergy who were somehow empowered to speak while others should hold their tongues (or persons empowered to tell people what the scriptures mean). And given the jewish tradition of dialog between all (where each is charged to study and understand and not to blindly accept another's interpretation), and the tradition of everyone speaking and opining in the synagogue and at public gatherings, I think it's only logical that that same tradition would be imported into the early christian church. As Jesus said, wherever two or three are gathered in my name..., no formalistic practices per se; these developed over time.

Now yes, there was the temple as well in Judaism, but much of the jewish tradition is pharisaic and did not involve priests and animal sacrifices and money changers; it was found in the synagogues and homes, and where the faithful gathered to share and pray. Face it, the temple was destroyed long ago, but Judaism has still flourished, precisely because it is rooted in these traditions and not the hierarchical structures.

So, were there leaders in the early church? Certainly. did they exert authority over early Christians? Not as such; they more had significant influence than authority; that sort of system developed slowly, and a church was founded that claimed (and still claims) it alone holds the keys to the kingdom, the only way to salvation.

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Crackpot
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Re: pope francis

Post by Crackpot »

I am not talking about the accuracy of what is written rather the association led divinit of the actions of mortals. Take Peter for example popular opinion has it that once Jesus was no longer around to constantly call him on his oversteps he stopped making mistakes. It doesn't take to critcla of a read too find that Peter is still prone to the same mistakes he made before the son of God left the building. Likewise Paul who while doctrinly impeccable spend the openings and closings of his letters threatening bullying and outright blackmailing people to get his way. Not to mention his actions themselves are somewhat questionable.

It's not the doctrine I debate but the tendency to elevate ancillary characters to deity status making thier words and actions as infallible as God.
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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MajGenl.Meade
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Re: pope francis

Post by MajGenl.Meade »

Big RR - oh, that church. Well, 'nuff said

CP - I've never heard that Peter stopped making mistakes - nor Paul either. Nor any of 'em actually. I think "that church" has it right when it says that the Bible is infallible as to matters of faith. Surely we all recognize that God wasn't dictating anything - the authors wrote according to their own styles, characters and foibles. In some places, Paul acknowledged things were his idea and not necessarily those of the Lord - but who guided him to that honest conclusion?

Yeah, he's a character that Paul - one of the things that makes Christianity so different from other religions is the sheer humanity of its leading lights - warts 'n all. Any good "religion creator" would have smoothed out a lot so it was palatable to everyone. But there's Paul... although some say that the book of James was the first written (and perhaps it was), I really enjoy reading it back to back with Galatians. If they don't read like two boxers duking it out.... well.... try it some time. Maybe James was riposting to Paul ("the tongue"?) - maybe Paul was taking a rip at James (not for the first time).

I'm not going to say they were arguing by letter. It says what it says. But it's interesting. To me it's interesting.
For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach-and, properly understood, does teach-that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts

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