A Thread For Posts About The Confederate Battle Flag...

[Scooter]

Is that the quote you want to hang your hat on? That this:

Rube has repeatedly referred to the Republican Party as "the party of treason" so by implication that would make me a "traitor", but that's a whole different topic. ...)

equals this:

But the attitude of people here is that any Southerner that is proud of his heritage is a traitor and racist.

?

Ok, any takers?

Anyone who will step up on lib's behalf and say that those two statements are the same?

Anyone at all?

[Big RR]

Scooter--while I do not want you to leave (and do not think this post supports Liberty's contentions), one thing I will point out is that for many (on this board and elsewhere), the secession and the civil war comes down to one issue alone, that of slavery. Now slavery did play an important part in the secession rhetoric (as has been pointed out many times), but wars are rarely if ever fought over a single issue, and even less so over a point of morality. The fact is that the northern and southern states grew apart on many economic and political issues, and this is what prompted the secession and ultimate rebellion. Persons like Lee (who has been quoted as opposing slavery many times) did not leave the US army until there were troops marched into their home states; they were defending their homes as much as trying to uphold the right to keep slaves. And the Union originally opposed the secession, not slavery; indeed, even the Emancipation Proclamation did nothing to free the slaves in the states the union still ruled, only in the states it had not power over (hardly a commitment to the freedom of the black races).

The question of secession was settled by the war, slavery was ended by constitutional amendment (and equality has still not been achieved in states on both sides of the war, as well as states that didn't even exist then).

So I don't think it all that much of a stretch for someone to say that having pride in their southern heritage and the stand the CSA made is racist, some refuse to see it as any more than that. I don't agree with that assessment, and even have a grudging admiration for what the CSA did.

[liberty]

But the attitude of people here is that any Southerner that is proud of his heritage is a traitor and racist.

Where?

Quote even a single instance of anyone saying any such thing.

Just one.

I'll provide an incentive that might interest you - come up with even one quote that resembles the statement you made in the slightest degree, you get any other poster of your choosing, past or present, to agree that it does, and I will do homage before an image of Jefferson Davis and leave this place without posting ever again.

No downside to you at all if you can't come up with anything, except to confirm what everyone already knows, that you're a pathetic whiner who uses posts like that to generate the pity parties required to reinforce the low opinion you have of yourself.

Shall we set a deadline of one...no, two weeks. We know that your reading speed is slowed by the need to move your lips.

Until then.

I have the right to feel however I wish; but, I don’t remember you attacking my family, but then I don’t pay a lot of attention to you.

Anyone who attacks my family attacks me.

[Scooter]

So I don't think it all that much of a stretch for someone to say that having pride in their southern heritage and the stand the CSA made is racist, some refuse to see it as any more than that.

That may well be. Then it should not be any sort of problem for the village idiot to find someone on this board who said it.

Unless it was once more something he pulled completely out of his ass to feed the victim routine he falls into whenever he gets called on his bullshit.

So, time to fish or cut bait.

I have the right to feel however I wish; but, I don’t remember you attacking my family, but then I don’t pay a lot of attention to you.

Anyone who attacks my family attacks me.

Oh, I have definitely attacked your family; when you decided to take shots about the kind of people my parents were and how they raised me, I held absolutely nothing back about what I thought about your DNA. I have never forgotten the vicious things you said about my parents and that is why I take so much pleasure in showing you up for the subdefective moron you are.

So that's an admission that you have nothing?

[Big RR]

Sorry Scooter; if you're limiting it to posts made here, it might not be as easy to find as I don't recall reading any saying that. I was looking more at the rhetoric on both sides of the issue generally, and some of the things I've heard people say on the news.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Not this again. Big RR your revisionist adoption of Lost Cause mythology is historically inaccurate.

What marked the start of the War of the Rebellion? Shots fired by South Carolina troops against the Federal installation Fort Sumter and the theft of United States property found within the seceded states.

When did Lee resign? Two days after Virginia seceded from the Union and NOT because Federal troops had entered his state. Note that many southern offices in the US army and West Point did not resign until their states seceded, regardless of Federal actions.

Was slavery the cause of the Rebellion? Yes absolutely, without question. Every state published slavery as the cause of their secession.

Did the war begin over a moral issue? No, not in the least. The north had no aim to end slavery in the south. There was no cause for war there.

How come slavery caused the war then? Because the southern states knew that new territories would be admitted as free rather than slave; that northern population was growing exponentially faster than in the south; that the north would refuse to implement the infamous law to return runaways. And that those factors would end southern dominance of Congress, both in the House and in the Senate. Therefore, they concluded that they must form their own country in which slavery was protected and all power would belong to southern white men.

This isn't rocket science. These are facts. The southern "cause" was the perpetuation of chattel slavery - without that there would have been no war.
Did the average Johnny Reb fight to perpetuate slavery? I don't think so. What difference does that make to the states' actions in creating war against the US? None at all.

ETA lib didn't say Southerners were racists. He has declared that all southerners are traitors because they are proud of their heritage (meaning, the rebellion).

[wesw]

Re: Church massacre

Postby Crackpot » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:31 pm

...and by displaying the flag the state shows tacit support for those things(slavery and hatred for the black race) (not to mention relveling in thier past treason)

Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

(I tried to search the quote from memory, but the spelling was so bad that it did not show up, so I searched the whole thread myself)

[MajGenl.Meade]

Good find, wesw. But that speaks of the state - not of southern people who are proud of etc etc etc. as lib claimed. He labelled a brave southern soldier of WW2 as a traitor - because he was born in the south, I guess.

[Guinevere]

Define "the South?" Only states that seceded? 'Cause Marylanders owned slaves, and its south of the Mason-Dixon line.

[Scooter]

Fine wes, since you apparently agree that supports what lib said, if he is prepared to say so, then that settles it. I'll even overlook that he should have been able to find the statements to support the accusations he spewed, since you were willing to do his work for him.

[Big RR]

Meade--

But the attitude of people here is that any Southerner that is proud of his heritage is a traitor and racist.

This is the quote of Liberty that Scooter referenced when he made his challenge; I have highlighted the relevant portion for you.

As for my quote about Lee, he did remain in the US Army and was not a fan of the CSA; further he knew of Lincoln's plans to march troops into the south and he felt that was wrong. So when VA seceded, he left the Army, and he later accepted a CSA commission to defend his home against what he saw as invaders. I regret any misunderstanding in what I previously wrote.

As for the rest, I'll leave it for another thread. Even you apparently admit the issue was much more than slavery, as I admit slavery was an important issue. But there's no sense arguing with someone who has their mind made up (and that goes for both of us).

[Guinevere]

Fine wes, since you apparently agree that supports what lib said, if he is prepared to say so, then that settles it. I'll even overlook that he should have been able to find the statements to support the accusations he spewed, since you were willing to do his work for him.

Except, as Meade points out, it doesn't support what Lib said. Not even close.

[MajGenl.Meade]

(Thanks Guin - you know he has me on ignore so he needs to know that wesw hasn't supported lib - yet)

Why the need for definition?

Southern Maryland in particular had many small slaveholders. Eastern Maryland was pretty good at burning schools established for children of freedmen (and women) from 1863 onward. Southern Maryland housed many of the pro-Confederate courier folk who also aided the Lincoln conspirators.

Inasmuch as Maryland did not secede from the Union, there can be no objection to labelling Marylanders who fought against the USA and aided its enemies as outright traitors. The brunt of the argument seems to be whether, having seceded, the citizens of the seceded states were traitors to the US.

Given than no country on earth recognized the Confederacy as a valid and operating entity known as a "country", it clearly was not a country and therefore was part of the US. Thoreau to the contrary.

[wesw]

Re: A Thread For Posts About The Confederate Battle Flag...

Postby bigskygal » Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:18 pm

Bigots unite in support of Confederate flag:

[Guinevere]

Except that they didn't secede, they only attempted to secede. (see the US Supreme Court which ruled the attempt to secede was unconstitutional, and ineffective). So yes, I know it remained part of the U.S. and, in fact, all of those confederate soldiers were traitors. But that's a long long LONG way from saying anyone proud of their Southern heritage is a traitor.

Why would anyone pay attention to or care what Lib "writes" (hell, why would you even read it - I mostly skip it), he's a completely biased idiot. Scooter, you know better. Don't engage him, ignore him.

[Guinevere]

Re: A Thread For Posts About The Confederate Battle Flag...

Postby bigskygal » Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:18 pm

Bigots unite in support of Confederate flag:

I'm quite sure bigotry is not treason.

And please, learn the quote function, its quite simple.

[liberty]

So I don't think it all that much of a stretch for someone to say that having pride in their southern heritage and the stand the CSA made is racist, some refuse to see it as any more than that.

That may well be. Then it should not be any sort of problem for the village idiot to find someone on this board who said it.

Unless it was once more something he pulled completely out of his ass to feed the victim routine he falls into whenever he gets called on his bullshit.

So, time to fish or cut bait.

I have the right to feel however I wish; but, I don’t remember you attacking my family, but then I don’t pay a lot of attention to you.

Anyone who attacks my family attacks me.

Oh, I have definitely attacked your family; when you decided to take shots about the kind of people my parents were and how they raised me, I held absolutely nothing back about what I thought about your DNA. I have never forgotten the vicious things you said about my parents and that is why I take so much pleasure in showing you up for the subdefective moron you are.

So that's an admission that you have nothing?

That does not sound like something I would normally do. Some details would help.

[MajGenl.Meade]

As for my quote about Lee, he did remain in the US Army and was not a fan of the CSA; further he knew of Lincoln's plans to march troops into the south and he felt that was wrong. So when VA seceded, he left the Army, and he later accepted a CSA commission to defend his home against what he saw as invaders. I regret any misunderstanding in what I previously wrote.

Just to clarify - he accepted promotion to Colonel on March 28, 1861. Everybody knew of Lincoln's public pledge to take action against South Carolina - Lee had no special knowledge. Lincoln of course had no reason to think that the Federal government had any less right to march troops through Virginia than it did through Wisconsin or Rhode Island - all equally parts of the Union. Lee was offered command in the South - he let it sit. Virginia seceded. That cleared the way for Lee to resign and take up the Southern command. You are correct that he considered secession to be "anarchy". How odd that he fought so hard on behalf of anarchy!

Slavery was the cause of the Rebellion - freedom for slaves was not the cause. Slaves were the property over which the South appealed to Mars - and lost.

[wesw]

So I don't think it all that much of a stretch for someone to say that having pride in their southern heritage and the stand the CSA made is racist, some refuse to see it as any more than that.

That may well be. Then it should not be any sort of problem for the village idiot to find someone on this board who said it.

Unless it was once more something he pulled completely out of his ass to feed the victim routine he falls into whenever he gets called on his bullshit.

So, time to fish or cut bait.

[Scooter]

Yes wes, that's what I said. You provided the alleged evidence on lib's behalf, I am just waiting for him to concur.