Wise words

[MajGenl.Meade]

[oldr_n_wsr]

Being a product of the 70's like LJ, self absorbtion was our motto. Since becoming a husband and father, I can say the self absorbtion had to be ditched (except when I drank, but that's another topic).
As far as the distribution of chores around the house, she does the house thingies better and I do the outside thingies better. I also do the plumbing and remodeling and painting and carpentry, and she does the cooking and cleaning and other inside stuff. We may be more "traditional" in our breakup of chores, but it does work for us and has for 31 years. We do help each other out with each others tasks when needed or requested.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[BoSoxGal]

You don’t owe anyone a justification for your values and your priorities.
You don’t owe anyone a yes when you want to say no.
You don’t owe anyone an explanation for your relationships, whether lovers or friends.
You don’t owe anyone assistance with their happiness journey at the cost of your own.
You don’t owe anyone a debate around your political views especially when the other person’s mind is made up.
You don’t owe anyone an apology when you are not sorry, and you would make the same decision again.
You don’t owe anyone a rationalization about why investing in yourself is important
You don’t owe anyone the meaning of what you believe in.
You don’t owe anyone a change in your appearance just to please them.
You don’t owe anyone friendship, especially when they do not share your values.
You don’t owe anyone a negative mindset so that you can commiserate with them.
You don’t owe anyone access to information about your life that makes you uncomfortable
You don’t owe anyone gossip material about other people just to fit in.
You don’t owe anyone your time for their projects or for things that matter to them unless they matter to you too.
You don’t owe anyone the commitment to try something “new” just because you were asked.
You don’t owe anyone a safe place for constant complaining and dwelling in their poor choices.
You don’t owe anyone an answer other than the truth to prevent them from being uncomfortable.
You don’t owe anyone your services as a crisis counselor unless you are actually a crisis counselor.
You don’t owe anyone false compliments just to make them feel better.
You don’t owe anyone anything that doesn’t make you feel good and goes against your gut instinct.

Okay, if you disagree with any of these specific statements, please explain specific justification as to why?

It seems to me they are all very sound statements, if not taken automatically from a negative perspective simply because of the format of the sentences (putting YOU ahead of others).

Whatever you folks seem to think you know about me from my posting on this board and pushing peoples' buttons, I am known in my present community (and have been throughout my adult life wherever I've lived and worked) as altruistic, compassionate, generous, and good-hearted.

Yet because I think this list is comprised of wise words, y'all use it as evidence to denigrate my character, status quo. I'll consider the source and that none of you knows me personally.

[Crackpot]

It's the type of objectivist randian crap that puts the self at peremium at the expense of others.

[BoSoxGal]

It's the type of objectivist randian crap that puts the self at peremium at the expense of others.

A totally general statement.

Please specifically refute any of the specific statements that you find outrageously selfish. I've read them many times now to try to understand all this objection - yet it seems that they all call for one to be true to one's own character, which results in one being true to others as well.

[Crackpot]

You must have missed these.

You don’t owe anyone assistance with their happiness journey at the cost of your own.
You don’t owe anyone anything that doesn’t make you feel good and goes against your gut instinct.

Anyone who believes those things should absolutely positively never have kids...

And anyone who believes these things:

You don’t owe anyone your time for their projects or for things that matter to them unless they matter to you too.
You don’t owe anyone an apology when you are not sorry, and you would make the same decision again.
You don’t owe anyone an answer other than the truth to prevent them from being uncomfortable.
You don’t owe anyone false compliments just to make them feel better
You don’t owe anyone a yes when you want to say no.
You don’t owe anyone the commitment to try something “new” just because you were asked.

Should never get married...

[MajGenl.Meade]

Noting that I don't think I've made any remark about your character...

You don’t owe anyone a justification for your values and your priorities

.

You do if you are married or in a serious ongoing relationship. You do if your values and your priorities clash with another's to the detriment of that other.

E.G. your boss asks you to do something that you regard as almost certainly immoral or illegal (perhaps against corporate regulations or even the law) - it may not be, but you think it is. Simply saying "No I will not" does not cut anything - except perhaps employment.

E.G. your significant other expresses a desire to take a vacation in Thailand - you don't like the idea of supporting the economy of a nation that exploits child labour. You'd better justify your "no"

E.G. you have a client who is guilty, who admits to you he is guilty but insists that you put him on the stand where he will lie about his whereabouts/actions - and he has some friends who are willing to lie too. I think somewhere along the line you will have to justify your values and/or priorities to someone.

The line may be re-stated with more economy as "My way or the highway"

[Lord Jim]

If you replaced the word "anyone" with the word "everyone" in that list, you might actually have a point...

[Lord Jim]

The whole thing looks like it was written by an EST trainer....

[rubato]

It's the type of objectivist randian crap that puts the self at peremium at the expense of others.

A totally general statement.

Please specifically refute any of the specific statements that you find outrageously selfish. I've read them many times now to try to understand all this objection - yet it seems that they all call for one to be true to one's own character, which results in one being true to others as well.

But generally true.

Randian values begin with a celebration of selfishness. The list above presupposes that ones moral relationship to the world is negative; it is about what you don't have to do for anyone else.


yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

You don’t owe anyone a yes when you want to say no

Try saying "no" when the boss asks you to do a little extra work. Or when a child wants you to play with them and you're knackered and don't feel like it.

People do good things for others, even when they themselves would rather sit and drink a Long Island iced tea.

And how about that friend who has done you a lot of good turns and asks now for a favour - you'd rather say "no" but....

I cannot imagine a life without obligation to others - to society. Of course it is Ayn Rand's kind of list because altruism is unacceptable

That's #2 on the list. Any defense?

[wesw]

speaking ayn rand...,

is Atlas Shrugged worth reading?

often when I m deciding if I want to read a book, I ll open it randomly and read a paragraph here and there to decide if I want to bother.
I did that with Atlas Shrugged and was not inspired to read any further. am I missing anything?

[oldr_n_wsr]

Okay, if you disagree with any of these specific statements, please explain specific justification as to why?

One by one (in random order)

You don’t owe anyone false compliments just to make them feel better.

"No that outfit doesn't make you look fat dear, you are fat."
They already know they are a little overweight, slamming it home does not do them any good and certainly it does not do me any good to point it out. To me, my wife is beautiful on the inside and the outside (but then again I am biased)

You don’t owe anyone a justification for your values and your priorities.

"My priority is alcohol and damn anyone who is in between me and my drink. And I value the release it gives me "
'nuff said.

You don’t owe anyone assistance with their happiness journey at the cost of your own.

To repeat what others have said:
I guess helping out my kids with anything that might disrupt "my hapiness journey" is not something I owe them. Even though it was me and my wifes choice to have them.

You don’t owe anyone a yes when you want to say no.

When any alcoholic asks for help, I want the hand of AA to be there, for that I am responsible. regardless of what I want to say

[Big RR]

Wes--

is Atlas Shrugged worth reading?

I struggled through a lot of the Ayn Rand tomes in college (when objectivism seemed much cooler than it actually was and before we all began to think of Rand as a cheerleader for the excesses of capitalism), and I would say Atlas Shrugged isn't worth the effort (if you want to get the just of it, I'm sure there is a Cliff's Notes). If you really want to read Rand, I'd recommend The Fountainhead--it's a bit less heavy handed (and if you want to skip that, you can watch the Gary Cooper movie of the same name).

[wesw]

thanks RR, I don t think I ll bother, tho there is a copy of atlas shrugged around here somewhere...

I don t have any burning desire to read any Rand works.

i just didn t want to miss a great work of literature.....

a great work of narcissism i can live without

[Big RR]

Well don't take just my word for it--anyone here think Atlas Shrugged is a great work of literature? A good work of literature? Literature?

[Gob]

I tried reading it, the turgid prose made me want to vomit.

[Long Run]

I am with Big RR, the Fountainhead is a better and more genuine story (before she got super sermonizing). Atlas Shrugged is in the same category as a novel like Uncle Tom's Cabin -- an okay but far from great book on its own, but really better known for the significant influence it had.

[wesw]

yeah bigsky, I was not very thrilled to be asked to take care of my son s pets for three days, but I cheerfully said "sure, no problem, have fun"

what I thought might interfere with my "happiness journey" ended up enhancing it.

so saying yes, when I really wanted to say no, turned out to be good for both of us.

[rubato]

"We the living" is short and gives a good feel for her writing. She is the kind of writer wildly popular with people who don't read a lot of books. Just as Libertarianism is a political philosophy most popular with people who have read almost no political philosophy. (AndrewD excepted)



yrs,
rubato