The United Police States of America

[MajGenl.Meade]

If I guessed at the ethnicity of those who were "enjoying'" the beat down, would I be wrong?

[TPFKA@W]

The vast majority of police officers, the vast majority of the time, comport themselves with exceptional professionalism,

Are you willing to admit that?

Fat chance.

[BoSoxGal]

The vast majority? Not in my several years experience working with law enforcement and dealing with their unprofessionalism, no I don't agree at all. What's been in the media recently is just making more widely known problems that folks in the system have known about for decades.

But of course you will come back and refute my professional experience with your certainty, regardless of lack of any real experience working with police day in, day out, year after year.

[Lord Jim]

But of course you will come back and refute my professional experience, blah, blah, blah, snark snark snark....

Frankly you come from a perspective and personal bias so self-evidently dripping with a pathological loathing for police officers, (one need only look at the language you employ when discussing them to easily see this) that I find your opinions on the topic less credible then that of an average person, not more...

In fact I can't think of anyone on this board whose opinions I assign less weight and credibility to on this subject than I give to yours...

Now you'll probably respond by sputtering indignantly and insecurely about all your supposed knowledge...

Most likely also accompanied by a slew of condescending ad hominem attacks...

(Because that's what you always do when anyone dares to question your "authoritative" pronouncements...)

ETA:

In fact the just hyperbolic melodramatic title you chose to give this thread, (Implying US is somehow a "police state") undermines your credibility as a person who could provide fair and objective evaluations in this area.

[BoSoxGal]

Sorry Jim, you don't come close to inspiring such feelings in me.

I'm confident in my lengthy experience with LEOs, which far surpasses yours. I've got nothing to be insecure about. Some of my closest friends are cops, who share my feelings about the serious problems in law enforcement training and policies/practices.

[Lord Jim]

The percent of U.S. residents age 16 or older who had face-
to-face contact with police declined from 2002 (21.0%) to
2005 (19.1%) and declined again in 2008 (16.9%).
„
An estimated 9 out of 10 residents who had contact with
police in 2008 felt the police acted properly.
„
The most common reason for contact with police in 2008
was being a driver in a traffic stop (44.1%).
„
White (8.4%), black (8.8%), and Hispanic (9.1%) drivers were
stopped by police at similar rates in 2008.
„

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpp08.pdf

Gee whiz, 9 out of 10...

That sure sounds like the "vast majority" to me, but then what does the The Bureau of Justice Statistics know...

[BoSoxGal]

You're talking about two different things, Jim. I know you are smart, so can only assume you are prevaricating in your presentation of the argument on purpose.

Anyway I'm tired of arguing with you; you are pretty much the definition of a closed mind. Maybe I am, too.

See ya later.

[Econoline]

The vast majority of police officers, the vast majority of the time, comport themselves with exceptional professionalism, day in and day out...

Are you willing to admit that?

If you include within the description of "exceptional professionalism" the principle of *NEVER* covering up for a fellow cop's wrongdoing...then NO, I for one do NOT admit to that.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Good point, econo!

LJ, if you include within the description of "exceptional professionalism" beating suspects to death, dealing drugs, corruption, issuing false traffic tickets, perjury, peeing on public statues, sleeping in a car and eating too many doughnuts, then I'd have to disagree too!!! How dare you, sir!?

[Lord Jim]

Police Officer Who Tackled James Blake Has History of Misconduct: Reports



NEW YORK CITY — The NYPD officer who tackled tennis star James Blake in a case of mistaken identity has been accused of using excessive force before, according to court records.

James Frascatore, a 38-year-old police officer who was identified in the media as the officer who arrested Blake, was named in five civilian complaints during a seven-month period in 2013, according to an investigation WNYC published last year.

The officer has more complaints — filed mostly for false testimony and excessive use of force — than 90 percent of active officers receive in their entire careers, according to the radio station and reports.[this guy has only been on the force four years]
The NYPD would not confirm Frascatore was the officer who tackled Blake and a spokeswoman for the Civilian Complaint Board Review, an independent agency that investigates complaints for police misconduct, said the board was "not permitted to discuss or disclose any NYPD officer's CCRB history."

Frascatore, who once worked for the 113th precinct in Queens, is also involved in two pending-lawsuits for use of excessive force, according to courts documents.

In 2013, Frascatore was among the police officers who beat up and pepper-sprayed Warren Diggs on "false charges," according to one of the on-going lawsuits. Diggs suffered cuts and lacerations on his face and neck and had to be transported to Jamaica Hospital. His charges were later dismissed, according to court documents.

Frascatore was also involved in a $5 million lawsuit filed by Stefon Luckey who claims that several officers assaulted him and pepper-sprayed him outside of a Queen deli in May 2014. The officers then tried to cover up their acts and arrested Luckey on false charges, according to the complaint.

On Wednesday, the plainclothes officer body-slammed former tennis pro Blake as he was waiting outside his hotel for a car to bring him to the U.S. open. Blake — once the 4th ranked tennis player worldwide — was handcuffed for about 15 minutes before officers realized they had mistaken him for a suspect wanted in a credit card fraud case.

The police officer was subsequently stripped of his badge and gun and assigned to administrative duties while an internal investigation is on-going, the police commissioner said.

Patrick Lynch, the president of the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, said the department acted prematurely in putting the officer on modified duty.

The confusion which led to Blake's take-down, came from an Instagram photo of a suspect who looked like Blake's "twin," officials said Thursday.

The photo was provided to the police by workers of the scammed online company, GoButler, which delivered at least 16 items bought with stolen credit cards in recent days, prosecutors charge.

GoButler became aware of suspicious purchases last week and immediately notified the NYPD, a spokeswoman for the company said.

"The police identified Blake as an individual who looked similar to one of the social media profiles used to purchase items via GoButler," GoButler spokeswoman Bianca McLaren wrote in an email, adding that GoButler "did not contribute to misidentifying James Blake."

The courier delivering the merchandise pointed Jarmaine Grey and James Short to the police and mistakenly pointed out Blake too, officials said on Thursday, adding they were still looking for a third suspect.

https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201509 ... ct-reports

To me, there are several interesting aspects to this story:

First, this guy is a classic "bad apple". More complaints in just his first four years as a cop, then ninety percent of police officers get in their entire careers with the NYPD? What the hell is this guy still doing on the force? If ever there was a poster boy for people to be weeded out of the police department, this guy is it. And not only isn't he gone, but apparently he's with a plain clothes unit, which is considered a promotion...

There's been a lot posted about "the thin blue line" and cops covering for other cops, etc. But one important factor we haven't discussed, is the power of the police unions and the role they play in making it excruciatingly difficult to get rid of the bad actors...

These unions have done a superb job through the collective bargaining agreements they have managed to obtain, of making it next to impossible to fire cops, no matter how many complaints are made, how many lawsuits, (and settlements and payouts) how many write ups, how many suspensions. (They're particularly strong in NYC, but this is a problem in most major cities around the country.)

And they fight tooth and nail against any discipline, no matter how egregious the misconduct. (As the statement from the PBA spokesman indicates they are doing in this case, despite the video that shows flagrant and glaring violations of department procedures.)

All public sector unions do this, but the difference is that when a lousy public school teacher isn't doing their job properly at least it's unlikely that anyone is going to wind up beat up or dead...

I don't have the statistics on this, but based on the numbers I've seen about it on any other group, (like the study I posted about DAs in California a while back) I'd be willing to bet good money that a vastly disproportionate percentage of the misconduct complaints filed are filed against a relatively small percentage of cops who get complaint after complaint after complaint...

Any strategy that wants to seriously address police misconduct that doesn't include reform of the union agreements to make it easier to get rid of the obvious bad actors is doomed to fail. All the body cams, all the additional training, all the psych evals, all the civilian oversight in the world won't make much impact if at the end of the day you can't get rid of the chronic misbehavors.

Another thing I find interesting about this particular case, is that given the facts it's pretty much inarguable that the police had good cause to approach Blake. He wasn't "racially profiled" he apparently bore such a close resemblance to the actual perp that even the courier who had been making the deliveries thought it was him.

The fact that the courier pointed him out to them as the guy who was part of the scheme, gave Frascatore every reason to walk up to him, identify himself as a police officer, produce his badge, say, and "Sir I'd like to ask you a couple of questions..." and also ask to see his identification.

But of course as anyone can see from looking at the video, that ain't what happened. Not by a long shot.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Tennis player or not, he was standing suspiciously still and doing nothing.

Must have thought he was Marin Cilic

[dales]

Been carted off to jail twice, once in Santa Clara County the previous time was in Contra Costa County.

Both times the arresting officer was very supportive and kind.

I suppose if I was going to act like an ashpole, things might've been different.

[Crackpot]

What caused the sudden change in demenor from your usual self?

[dales]

Huh?

If you've never been arrested, you have no cred.

[Scooter]

As I said earlier in this thread, the two times I was arrested in my twenties did absolutely nothing to contribute to the fear and mistrust I feel for the police; that is due almost entirely to police behaviour of which I was nothing more than a bystander in my forties.

[Crackpot]

It's a joke about being an asshole son!

[Lord Jim]

I suppose if I was going to act like an ashpole, things might've been different.

That's one thing I was thinking about in this case...

Despite the fact that what was happening to him was outrageous and completely uncalled for, Blake absolutely did the right thing by maintaining self-control and not resisting; if he had (especially given the fact that he was dealing with a rogue cop who apparently looks for opportunities to engage in violence) things could have been much worse for him.

This has occurred to Blake as well:

James Blake on cop's mistake: Outcome for me could have been worse

New York (CNN)When former tennis star James Blake relives the moment an undercover cop grabbed and threw him to the ground outside a New York hotel, he wonders what would have happened if he hadn't cooperated.

What if he hadn't been so passive, he says, with the stranger who rushed him without saying a word?

"I think about how scary it would have been had I put my arms up and done the normal reaction ... to defend myself," Blake told CNN's Don Lemon on Saturday.

"If I had any sort of resistance, I wonder what could have happened. I could have broken bones, a concussion or worse."

The athlete was waiting Wednesday for a car to pick him up and take him to the U.S. Open tennis tournament, where he's doing corporate appearances. A surveillance video released by the NYPD shows Blake casually standing outside a Grand Hyatt hotel in Manhattan when the plainclothes cop rushes him and throws him to the ground, then handcuffs and leads him away. In the minute-long video, Blake doesn't resist.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/12/us/tennis ... index.html

Even if you are being treated unfairly by a cop, resisting, mouthing off, etc., right then and there at that moment is never a wise course...

You get a lawyer and you deal with it later; you're never going to come out better off getting into a fight with a cop in a situation like that.

[Guinevere]

[quote="Lord Jim"]
These unions have done a superb job through the collective bargaining agreements they have managed to obtain, of making it next to impossible to fire cops, no matter how many complaints are made, how many lawsuits, (and settlements and payouts) how many write ups, how many suspensions. (They're particularly strong in NYC, but this is a problem in most major cities around the country.)

And they fight tooth and nail against any discipline, no matter how egregious the misconduct. (As the statement from the PBA spokesman indicates they are doing in this case, despite the video that shows flagrant and glaring violations of department procedures.)

[/quote="Lord Jim"]

Not exactly. The unions are only exercising the muscle given to them by the legislatures and decades of arbitrators making and developing precedent in arbitration decisions. And under most state statutory schemes, arbitration decisions are very difficult to get overturned. There has to be a substantial failure in due process, or some other significant flaw in the preceding that impacted the outcome. Courts generally do not review the substance of arbitration proceedings (I posted this before in the context of the NFLPA/Brady proceeding, federal law is similar to the state processes).

A civil service employee has a statutory right to their job, once past probation (contrast this to most employment in the U.S., which is at-will employment). So to deprive someone of s protected right, you must go through a process designed to make sure the process is fair and equitable. For example, in MA, the Chief may discipline up to a 5 day suspension, and without a prior hearing. Anything more serious requires notice and a hearing by the appointing authority (typically the executive of the city or town). The employee may then appeal to either the Civil Service Commission or private arbitration (if the contract do allows). Perhaps surprisingly, private arbitrators tend to let cops off the hook more than the Commission (in my experience the last decade of doing this work).

Civil service was created to protect public employees from the vagaries of politicalization of their employment status, and definitely had an important role doing that, but it's gotten a bit off kilter by the imposition of private arbitrators into the process - who need to continue to be selected by the parties to keep doing their work. Imagine, if an arbitrator never ruled in favor of the unions, would that arbitrators ever get selected again? It's an unarticulated and major concern, I believe.

Finally. Yes., unions settle. I've got a guy out on unpaid leave right now, for egregious off-duty conduct. Waiting on the criminal proceeding resolution before going forward - because you really have to once they are charged. If he didn't agree to the temporary resolution,, he could be out on paid leave indefinitely.

[dales]

It's a joke about being an asshole son!

You disappoint me, I would have thought better of you than an unprovoked attack.

Oh well, at least I don't live in Detroit.

[BoSoxGal]

I wonder if this officer would have been charged with murder had the video not been ordered released?

I wonder why this officer wasn't charged with murder within days, or at most weeks, of the murder? I didn't need a year to see what was plainly evident on that video - that kid was gunned down without justification.

I wonder if a killing like this would even be called to account in the days before dashcam video? That's what most Americans are beginning to wonder about their police; what have they gotten away with all the years before digital video, before cellphone cameras in the hands of bystanders?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/24/us/laquan ... ing-video/


This is the full dashcam; the relevant bit starts at 5:15: