democratic election themes and daily talking points

[wesw]

let it go , meade.

gob is right, our election system sucks.

we should have one day, a national holiday, for voting. we should scrap all computer voting, all of the recent hacking should make it evident that computer voting is not trustworthy. if Canada can still count paper ballots we can too. anyone who is not a citizen, and votes anyway, should be deported or jailed. if our voting system lacks integrity , our democracy will fail.

[MajGenl.Meade]

(Potty mouth word) them if they are too occupied trying to make a living deal with a different language and take care of their children?
Yrs.
Rubato

I didn't think anyone here bigoted enough to identify people who are too inept to obtain I.D. as underemployed immigrant parents with no English skills.

I guess there's at least one, which from now on should sign itself "trumpato"

(Sorry wesw. I take out the trash)

[Lord Jim]

Obviously, rube is not a part of that 58% of Democrats who actually care about preserving the integrity of our elections...

Color me shocked....

[Econoline]

So, he asked again, what is the problem with producing ID to vote? Do you just rock up to your banks and say:" "My name is Elton John, and I'd like a million dollars cash from my account please"?

Almost all the examples of "voter fraud" cited were of fraudulent absentee ballots and of fraudulent manipulation of the voter rolls by (Republican) government officials. None of the examples cited would have been prevented by proof of ID at the polls.

Fair comment, but they are indicative of how badly run your electoral system is...

As I've said before, preventing people from voting who show up at the polling place without an ID is not the most common nor most significant form of voter suppression; even Jim and most Republicans concede that people rarely claim to be someone else when they show up to vote. It's obvious that the registration process is more fraught with problems than the showing-up-to-vote part.

I'd be curious to know, from those here who have lived and voted in other countries, what is the process elsewhere to prevent the sort of fraud that Republicans here are so concerned about? What form(s) of ID must be presented at the polls on voting day in order to cast a vote? What is the process for obtaining this voting ID? Does acquiring the voting ID involve presenting some other sorts of identification? If so, what is the process for obtaining those forms of ID? (How difficult is it? How expensive is it? How long does it take?)

In addition, I'd really like to see some evidence that there is any significant amount of widespread, simple and free compliance assistance being provided by the same governmental entities that are imposing additional requirements for voting.

[MajGenl.Meade]

I never voted in England so I don't know. (Is this on Amazon?)

I can't vote in South Africa of course but over there every person has a government issued and required identity number and document. You can hardly do anything without producing it - to get DL, bank account, credit, insurance, mortgage (bond). Of course you need it to vote and, if they still follow the practice, once you vote your fingers are dyed blue so you can't vote twice.

The government helps everybody - they have special places you can go to get ID for your new baby. If you don't go, you don't get an ID. Easy-peasy

[Econoline]

Thanks, Meade; I'm hoping others will also respond to my questions.

So in SA this national ID is issued at birth (or shortly after) and remains with the individual for life and doesn't expire, and doesn't require renewal or re-registration if the individual moves to a different address or a different town? Presumably there is an alternative procedure for anyone who is crazy enough to emigrates to South Africa and becomes a citizen? And unless it's replaced later in life with a photo ID (which would have to be renewed periodically?), it seems like it still wouldn't prevent the sort of fraud these new state laws in the US are supposedly designed to combat?

[MajGenl.Meade]

Yeah I was a bit sloppy there - "new baby" isn't so. It's by age 16 and I should have known it since we were involved in getting IDs for the some of the kids at Bolokanang. It can be hard for those kinds of kids - in some cases no one really knows their birthday and birth certificates are often "gone". [And apropos nothing, you have to prove your identity to get a phone or phone chip - which is also registered]

General information about South African Identity books / Identity Documents

An Identity document is important to get as soon as you are eligible (from 16 years of age) as it proves your identity. The green bar-coded Identity book (ID book) is also a legal form of identity when dealing with public and private institutions. There are many occasions when you will be requested to provide a copy of your ID book – for example for access to housing, education and healthcare services; to apply for a driver’s license or a job; when entering into business agreements and even when registering for the Unemployment Insurance Fund.

You will also need an identity book to apply for a passport, and visas to work, study or visit friends and family overseas. You will also need your identity book to register to vote in the general and municipal elections.

Identity documents are issued to South African citizens or permanent residence permit holders who are 16 years or older. People (including spouses and children) who are working for the South African government or one of its statutory bodies outside of South Africa also qualify to receive South African ID books.

You can apply for your ID book at any office of the Department of Home Affairs or any South African mission or consulate overseas. All applications are sent to the Department’s head office in Pretoria. There, your fingerprints will be matched with those already on record or entered into the National Population Register. Your application will then be processed and once issued, your ID book will be forwarded to the office where you made your application for you to collect.

You must provide your cellphone number in your application so that you can receive regular updates on the progress of your application by SMS. To get the SMS updates, simply SMS the word “ID” followed by your ID number to 32551. You will be charged R1 for each SMS sent.


Applying for an Identity book / Identity document for the first time

First time applicants must submit the following documentation to their nearest Department of Home Affairs office or South African mission or consulate abroad:
• Form BI-9, completed in black ink
• A certified copy of your Birth certificate or reference book or a copy of the old Transkei, Bophutatswana, Venda or Ciskei homelands identity or travel documents
• Two identical, colour photographs

Your fingerprints will be taken by a Home Affairs official and imprinted on Form DHA-9.

[Lord Jim]

it seems like it still wouldn't prevent the sort of fraud these new state laws in the US are supposedly designed to combat

Gen'l, is it your impression that preventing fraudulent voting is a big consideration in South Africa?

(My impression is that it probably isn't, at least so long as the fraud is in favor of the ANC...)

[MajGenl.Meade]

No need for fraud - the system is so one-sided. You get to vote for a "card" of candidates and it's likely not one of them lives, works or even visits your neighborhood. So you've got 5 ANC names on a slate and that's your only choice - or vote for another party's list or don't vote. People in the townships are becoming increasingly hostile to the ANC because they feel they really have no choice in who represents them

And yes, actually they do try hard to prevent voter fraud - the Electoral Commission works at it quite well.

[Gob]

I'd be curious to know, from those here who have lived and voted in other countries, what is the process elsewhere to prevent the sort of fraud that Republicans here are so concerned about? What form(s) of ID must be presented at the polls on voting day in order to cast a vote?

No ID required in the UK.

None in Australia, apart from Queensland

Approved Proof of Identity documents are –

a current driver licence;
a current Australian passport;
a Voter Information Letter issued by the Commission;
a recent document evidencing electoral enrolment;
an identification card issued by the Commonwealth or State evidencing the person’s entitlement to a financial benefit;
Examples -
A Commonwealth seniors health card, health care card, Medicare card, pensioner concession card or repatriation health card
an adult proof of age card issued by the State;
a recent account or notice issued by a local government or a public utility provider;
Examples –
a council rates notice, electricity account statement, gas account statement or water bill
a recent account statement, current account card or current credit card issued by a financial institution;
a recent account statement issued by a carriage service provider as defined under theTelecommunications Act 1997 (Cwlth);
Examples –
A telephone bill or internet bill
a recent notice of assessment issued under the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997 (Cwlth)

Under the existing Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918 it is compulsory for Australian citizens aged 18 years or older, and who have lived at the same address for a month, to register their name and address on the electoral roll. Enrolment can be made online or by completing a form available from the Australian Electoral Commission.

To enrol, citizens need to provide evidence of identity: a driver's licence, Australian passport number or have someone who is already on the roll to confirm the enrolee’s identity.

While it is commonly understood that voting is compulsory for Australian citizens, in practice you are required only to present yourself at a voting booth and have your name marked off the roll. Because casting a ballot is done in secret, it is impossible to tell in a particular case whether a valid vote has actually been cast. A voter may have deposited a blank ballot paper in the box, for example.

On polling day, AEC officials ask each prospective voter the following questions:

What is your full name?
Where do you live?
Have you voted before in this election?

[BoSoxGal]

We should do the ink thing here! That would be cool, better than a sticker.

[TPFKA@W]

The ink thing is pretty barbaric sounding and would not fly here. People have skin allergies and sensitivities to dyes.

[Big RR]

To enrol, citizens need to provide evidence of identity: a driver's licence, Australian passport number or have someone who is already on the roll to confirm the enrolee’s identity.

How do they do that online? Do you mail a copy of the evidence or scan and attach it?

On polling day, AEC officials ask each prospective voter the following questions:

What is your full name?
Where do you live?
Have you voted before in this election?

Except for the last question (and since you sign the election book that day the answer would be obvious to the poll worker), pretty much the same as every US polling place I've been to.

[oldr_n_wsr]

Except for the last question (and since you sign the election book that day the answer would be obvious to the poll worker), pretty much the same as every US polling place I've been to.

Unless they go to a different polling place, or the same polling place and pretend to be someone else.

[Big RR]

True, that is what the challengers are supposedly there for. but absent that, the questions/process would be the pretty much the same in Australia or the US.

[Econoline]

Approved Proof of Identity documents are –

a current driver licence;
a current Australian passport;
a Voter Information Letter issued by the Commission;
a recent document evidencing electoral enrolment;
an identification card issued by the Commonwealth or State evidencing the person’s entitlement to a financial benefit;
Examples -
A Commonwealth seniors health card, health care card, Medicare card, pensioner concession card or repatriation health card
an adult proof of age card issued by the State;
a recent account or notice issued by a local government or a public utility provider;
Examples –
a council rates notice, electricity account statement, gas account statement or water bill
a recent account statement, current account card or current credit card issued by a financial institution;
a recent account statement issued by a carriage service provider as defined under theTelecommunications Act 1997 (Cwlth);
Examples –
A telephone bill or internet bill
a recent notice of assessment issued under the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997 (Cwlth)

For comparison, here is the full list of the only approved ID documents in Texas:

• Texas driver license issued by the Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS)
• Texas Election Identification Certificate issued by DPS
• Texas personal identification card issued by DPS
• Texas concealed handgun license issued by DPS
• United States military identification card containing the person’s photograph
• United States citizenship certificate containing the person’s photograph
• United States passport

And if your name on the voting rolls doesn't match the name on the ID exactly (e.g., a woman's married name) you must either go through whatever process is necessary to change the name on the ID or re-register to vote using the name on the ID you're using. If you move to a different county within the state of Texas, you have to re-register to vote. (Of course, if you move to a different state within the US, every state requires you to re-register to vote.)

[MajGenl.Meade]

you must either go through whatever process is necessary to change the name on the ID or re-register to vote using the name on the ID you're using.

[Sue U]

The fact is that there is virtually no in-person voting fraud. "Voter ID" laws are a solution in search of a problem -- or rather, they are a "solution" to a "problem" other than the one they purportedly address: Their sole purpose is to make voting more difficult, particularly for people who are economically or socially marginalized -- i.e., the people who don't already have the "proper" ID, and who are unable to get it without some significant effort. Let's be honest, these requirements affect poor, urban and elderly voters in grossly disproportionate numbers: people who don't drive, cannot afford a car, cannot take time off work to go get documentation, cannot readily get to an issuing agency, etc. And yes, these population groups as a whole tend to vote Democrat. So the more of a pain in the ass a legislature can make it to vote, the greater effect it will have in limiting votes for Democrats. Every obstacle and annoyance that can be thrown at these voters -- whether it's supplemental ID, limiting voting hours, moving polling places, inadequately staffing polling places, providing too few voting machines or too many broken ones, or whatever else -- will disproportionately affect votes for Democrats. And that is the whole point of this exercise. To pretend "voter ID" is about protecting the integrity of the voting process is sheer bullshit at best.

[TPFKA@W]

Well virtually none isn't quite the same as none so I say let's go with showing ID when we vote just to humor the majority who believe it's the right thing to do.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Don't be a goose! That "Americans don't take kindly to..." argument ONLY works when you're AGAINST I.D. requirements.