Let Me Pick Your Brain, Surgeon

[oldr_n_wsr]

Sharia law is a little bit different.

[Sue U]

Sharia law is a little bit different.

1. How?

2. So what?

[oldr_n_wsr]

1. do I really need to make the list? Women as chattle, covering .......
No mocking Muhammad.....

2. If a belief system of a president is majorly different than the constitution, that is a problem for him, and for me. That is what Carson said (In my reading of it).

If a Muslim can put aside his belief system, and put the constitution above that system, then I would think that is fine.

[Sue U]

1. do I really need to make the list? Women as chattle, covering .......
No mocking Muhammad.....

No, how is it different in terms that make a difference to who should be President? Christianity (in various versions) calls for women to be subservient to their husbands and prohibits blasphemy. Church law may prohibit same-sex marriages. The Amish reject compulsory education. Quakers and Mennonites refuse military service in times of draft. Religious law for Christians and Jews (as well as Muslims) is often and in many ways in conflict with the secular law of the United States.

2. If a belief system of a president is majorly different than the constitution, that is a problem for him, and for me. That is what Carson said (In my reading of it).

If a Muslim can put aside his belief system, and put the constitution above that system, then I would think that is fine.

What about Christian candidates like Mike Huckabee or Ted Cruz? Do you think they should put aside their belief systems in order to be President? Does anyone even suggest they are unfit for the presidency solely because they are Christians and their Christian beliefs are in conflict with the secular law of the land? The fact that Carson evidently thinks this is a problem only for hypothetical Muslims and not for real Christians indicates either a colossal defect in reasoning or malicious pandering to an ignorant base.

[oldr_n_wsr]

Christianity (in various versions) calls for women to be subservient to their husbands and prohibits blasphemy.

And that runs rampant and is adhered to... where? And all those Christain presidents in the past called for that....when?
And there is a city/state/country that practices those things .....where?
All those things ARE alive and well and being practiced in Muslim countries and are in conflict with the constitution. From what I see in Muslim nations they are behind the times and until the majority of Muslims rise up and throw away those old ideas and customs, then I am leary of any and all of them that would try and be president.

Church law may prohibit same-sex marriages.

Church law, not constitutional law (as has just been decided). Even Obama was against it.

Do you think they should put aside their belief systems in order to be President?

Anything not consistent with the constitution should be put aside OR they should not run for the presidency.
And the way I read what Carson said that is how he feels also.
Many (most?) Catholics put aside parts of Catholisism yet they still consider themselves Catholics. Case in point is birth control. I guess (no hard numbers) that the majority of Catholics use birth control against the teachings. I know my parents did and they are about as devout Catholics aas you can find.
One need not throw out their WHOLE belief system. I don't agree with abortion yet I would never tell a woman that she can't have one. I would (and do) act (calls to congress, etc) against late term abortions and any harvesting of body parts, even if they are a boon to science, and I have not heard of any major break throughs that happened only because there was access to aborted babies.

The fact that Carson evidently thinks this is a problem only for hypothetical Muslims and not for real Christians indicates either a colossal defect in reasoning or malicious pandering to an ignorant base.

The question was hypothetical and IMO a gotcha question. And IMO had he said that he would support the hypothetical Muslim presidential candidate it would be portrayed as "Carson is for sharia law in the USA".
This whole thing is like when Obama said "you didn't build that". I know he didn't mean the business owner didn't build that business, but that the owner was aided by the infrastructure and all the other things the gov provides (that we and the business owner pay for I like to add).

IIRC, Hillary gave a similar answer to a similar question back in '08 with not a big deal made about it. although I could be mistaken

[Joe Guy]

Part of the problem with Dr Carson's statement is that he decided that about 12 million Americans should not be president based on their religion rather than their personal political views and ideas.

I guess he believes that any Muslim that wanted to become president of the US would run on a sharia law political platform - and he is afraid that person might win.

[Sue U]

Christianity (in various versions) calls for women to be subservient to their husbands and prohibits blasphemy.

And that runs rampant and is adhered to... where? And all those Christain presidents in the past called for that....when?
And there is a city/state/country that practices those things .....where?

There are public officials and political pressure groups all around this country proclaiming that "this is a Christian nation" and that Biblical law supersedes secular civil law, or alternatively that civil law must be brought into conformity with Biblical law. We have public officials who regularly use (or allow the use of) the state to promote Christian religious observances and Christian values. We have bans on Sunday sales that are based on religious views, and virtually all the morality laws in this country are based on Christian doctrines and prohibitions. Religious -- and specifically, Christian -- faith is a featured part of the presidential campaign, and as I pointed out elsewhere, was prominently displayed in the first GOP debate with the candidates trying to out-Jesus each other. The whole "defund Planned Parenthood" nonsense is motivated by entirely by Christian religious views about abortion and contraception.

All those things ARE alive and well and being practiced in Muslim countries and are in conflict with the constitution. From what I see in Muslim nations they are behind the times and until the majority of Muslims rise up and throw away those old ideas and customs, then I am leary of any and all of them that would try and be president.

It may come as a surprise to you, but U.S. Presidential candidates are not from other countries -- whether Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu or Buddhist -- and whatever practices those countries may engage in is wholly irrelevant to U.S. government. There is no Saudi Arabian Wahabbist or Indian Hindu nationalist or Jewish religious party candidate who is or even could be running for President of the United States.

Church law may prohibit same-sex marriages.

Church law, not constitutional law (as has just been decided). Even Obama was against it.

Exactly my point, especially if you believe Obama is a Muslim.

Do you think they should put aside their belief systems in order to be President?

Anything not consistent with the constitution should be put aside OR they should not run for the presidency.
And the way I read what Carson said that is how he feels also.

So then why does Carson say he could not support ANY Muslim ever being President? And why is this not an issue (for him) in regard to the Christian candidates who want to impose their religious-law views on the rest of us ?

The point is, Carson holds a bigoted and irrational view of Muslims (particularly American Muslims) and is apparently clueless as to both our constitutional principles and how our government actually operates. Brain surgeon or not, he is A Idiot.

[Sue U]

Part of the problem with Dr Carson's statement is that he decided that about 12 million Americans should not be president based on their religion rather than their personal political views and ideas.

I guess he believes that any Muslim that wanted to become president of the US would run on a sharia law political platform - and he is afraid that person might win.

I don't know why I bother with lengthy explanatory posts when Joe Guy nails it in two short sentences.

[Lord Jim]

the problem with Dr Carson's statement is that he decided that about 12 million Americans should not be president based on their religion rather than their personal political views and ideas.

[Crackpot]

Since no one else is gonna do it

Liberty Ethan's you should be clued in by the fact that your argument is invalid he only one based on race.

[rubato]

Carson reminds me of the large number of Seventh-Day-Adventist professionals in my family and extended social network. They're really kind of childishly naive about the larger world and accept patently silly explanations for things. I recall a beloved aunt who explained the bigoted persecution and false conviction of Lindy Chamberlain by saying "They aren't a Christian country" (Aus). Simplistic, and off the point.

I like them as people and respect them for how they hold their beliefs, and they tithe, btw, as the christian texts require them to. They don't just 'give a tiny part of their surplus' like most pseudo-christians do. They sacrifice for what they say matters to them. And they do know something about diet and health since they are among the two longest-lived groups on the planet (Okinawans and SDAs according to National Geographic)


In terms of his understanding of the larger world he's an amiable moron. He isn't really very intelligent except in his specialty. In some ways he is very like Romney, immersed in an uber-conservative subculture and not curious enough or intelligent enough about the larger world to question the assumptions of his tribe. And neither ever learned the skills of self-criticism.


yrs,
rubato

[Sue U]

This just in from the Taliban, US American Christian Division:

Jesus Town
An Arizona city council votes for Christian-only prayers, citing the Constitution.

By Dahlia Lithwick

Sometimes, American religious intolerance manages to successfully hide its true nature. But other times, American religious intolerance struts into the room wearing a fake nose, eyeglasses, and a moustache. Just as GOP presidential hopeful Ben Carson announced that Muslims should be barred from the American presidency, and Donald Trump has continued to splash merrily through the Obama conspiracy theories, the city council of Coolidge, Arizona, took a little time off from governance to endorse a policy of Christian-only prayers.

As Alia Beard Rau explained, the council had an item on its agenda last week that would have allowed “members of all religious organizations within Coolidge to offer a prayer, moment of silence, or short message at the start of council meetings.” We know, after the Supreme Court’s 2014 ruling in Town of Greece v. Galloway, that town boards are perfectly free to do so, as long as the community does not have a policy that would formally discriminate against minority faiths.

The city of Coolidge in fact opened its meetings with a prayer from 1996 to 2006, stopping mainly because it had trouble getting actual local ministers interested in officiating. But at last week’s meeting, Councilman Rob Hudelson, a Baptist pastor, evidently went further and suggested amending the prayer resolution to limit it to only Christian groups. His proposal passed on a 4–2 vote.

According to the Coolidge Examiner, the original resolution would have included prayers from ministers of any faith represented within the city limits. As the council debated the original proposal, one member, Gary Lewis, pointed out that if somebody from a religion he didn’t support rose to offer a prayer, he might leave the room. “Under my faith, I wouldn’t sit here and listen to it,” Lewis said. “I would walk away.”

Speaking last was Hudelson, who, according to the Examiner, “made clear his views that the United States is a Christian nation.” “I think it’s very important. … We just proclaimed Constitution Week. You know what was said at the end of the (Revolutionary) War? A treaty in Paris that said, ‘In the name of the most Holy and undivided Trinity.’ You don’t get that from the Quran. You get it from the Bible. You get it from Christianity. That’s our heritage.”

Hudelson also said (you can watch here), “That’s our heritage. We should not be ashamed of it, nor should we be pushed into a corner because [of] Supreme Court decisions. The first prayer in Congress ended by saying, ‘Thy son, our savior, based on the merits of Jesus Christ our Lord and savior. Amen.’ ” Constitution Week evidently means different things in Coolidge than it does for the parts of the country that embrace the First Amendment.

After Hudelson moved to amend the resolution to permit only Christian prayer, city attorney Denis Fitzgibbons explained that this would violate the Constitution. “That would complicate things,” Fitzgibbons jumped in: “The council would then be establishing Christianity (as the religion).”

No matter. Lewis seconded the amendment, and it passed. Coolidge Mayor Jon Thompson and Councilman Gilbert Lopez voted against the amended resolution, with Thompson pointing out that the town would be sued: “I’m not going to get the taxpayers sued,” Thompson said. “If I had a problem with what was being said during the prayer, I wouldn’t pay attention. … We’re going to knowingly become involved in litigation that we cannot afford.”

The resolution will now be redrafted to incorporate language providing that all future prayers can only be Christian. The next city council meeting, scheduled for Monday, will put the question to a vote. The Arizona American Civil Liberties Union has already sent the city a letter warning that it is in violation of the First Amendment if it adopts the new rule. Update, Sept. 22, 2:12 p.m.: The Coolidge City Council has abandoned the proposal to allow only Christian prayers in its meetings.

Ironically, the original resolution, which would have restricted prayers to those from ministers of religious establishments that stood within city limits, probably would have achieved the same ends as the unconstitutional new amendment, but in the kind of sneaky, subversive way that would have avoided an ACLU lawsuit. According to the Coolidge Examiner, it’s unclear whether there are even any religious establishments in Coolidge that don’t consider themselves Christian in the first place. Still, why do with trickery what you can accomplish with an overt embrace of religious intolerance? Ask Donald Trump and Ben Carson. It’s rapidly becoming the American way.

Source.

ETA:

Better now?

[Crackpot]

Links sasses up the screen.

[rubato]

The fact that women were chattel and had no rights was dogma and uniformly enforced throughout the Christian world until secular feminists starting with Mary Wollstonecraft through Harriet Mill and ending with the modern Feminist movement in the1970s taught Christians that they would have to accept otherwise.

Christianity has a 700-year start on Islam but you have only given up treating women like farm animals for a few decades (partially, Republicans keep turning the clock back on this).

I doubt if Islam with take as long as you did.


yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

This just in from the Taliban, US American Christian Division:

Jesus Town
An Arizona city council votes for Christian-only prayers, citing the Constitution.

By Dahlia Lithwick

Sometimes, American religious intolerance manages to successfully hide its true nature. But other times, American religious intolerance struts into the room wearing a fake nose, eyeglasses, and a moustache. Just as GOP presidential hopeful Ben Carson announced that Muslims should be barred from the American presidency, and Donald Trump has continued to splash merrily through the Obama conspiracy theories, the city council of Coolidge, Arizona, took a little time off from governance to endorse a policy of Christian-only prayers.

As Alia Beard Rau explained, the council had an item on its agenda last week that would have allowed “members of all religious organizations within Coolidge to offer a prayer, moment of silence, or short message at the start of council meetings.” We know, after the Supreme Court’s 2014 ruling in Town of Greece v. Galloway, that town boards are perfectly free to do so, as long as the community does not have a policy that would formally discriminate against minority faiths.

The city of Coolidge in fact opened its meetings with a prayer from 1996 to 2006, stopping mainly because it had trouble getting actual local ministers interested in officiating. But at last week’s meeting, Councilman Rob Hudelson, a Baptist pastor, evidently went further and suggested amending the prayer resolution to limit it to only Christian groups. His proposal passed on a 4–2 vote.

According to the Coolidge Examiner, the original resolution would have included prayers from ministers of any faith represented within the city limits. As the council debated the original proposal, one member, Gary Lewis, pointed out that if somebody from a religion he didn’t support rose to offer a prayer, he might leave the room. “Under my faith, I wouldn’t sit here and listen to it,” Lewis said. “I would walk away.”

Speaking last was Hudelson, who, according to the Examiner, “made clear his views that the United States is a Christian nation.” “I think it’s very important. … We just proclaimed Constitution Week. You know what was said at the end of the (Revolutionary) War? A treaty in Paris that said, ‘In the name of the most Holy and undivided Trinity.’ You don’t get that from the Quran. You get it from the Bible. You get it from Christianity. That’s our heritage.”

Hudelson also said (you can watch here), “That’s our heritage. We should not be ashamed of it, nor should we be pushed into a corner because [of] Supreme Court decisions. The first prayer in Congress ended by saying, ‘Thy son, our savior, based on the merits of Jesus Christ our Lord and savior. Amen.’ ” Constitution Week evidently means different things in Coolidge than it does for the parts of the country that embrace the First Amendment.

After Hudelson moved to amend the resolution to permit only Christian prayer, city attorney Denis Fitzgibbons explained that this would violate the Constitution. “That would complicate things,” Fitzgibbons jumped in: “The council would then be establishing Christianity (as the religion).”

No matter. Lewis seconded the amendment, and it passed. Coolidge Mayor Jon Thompson and Councilman Gilbert Lopez voted against the amended resolution, with Thompson pointing out that the town would be sued: “I’m not going to get the taxpayers sued,” Thompson said. “If I had a problem with what was being said during the prayer, I wouldn’t pay attention. … We’re going to knowingly become involved in litigation that we cannot afford.”

The resolution will now be redrafted to incorporate language providing that all future prayers can only be Christian. The next city council meeting, scheduled for Monday, will put the question to a vote. The Arizona American Civil Liberties Union has already sent the city a letter warning that it is in violation of the First Amendment if it adopts the new rule. Update, Sept. 22, 2:12 p.m.: The Coolidge City Council has abandoned the proposal to allow only Christian prayers in its meetings.

Ironically, the original resolution, which would have restricted prayers to those from ministers of religious establishments that stood within city limits, probably would have achieved the same ends as the unconstitutional new amendment, but in the kind of sneaky, subversive way that would have avoided an ACLU lawsuit. According to the Coolidge Examiner, it’s unclear whether there are even any religious establishments in Coolidge that don’t consider themselves Christian in the first place. Still, why do with trickery what you can accomplish with an overt embrace of religious intolerance? Ask Donald Trump and Ben Carson. It’s rapidly becoming the American way.

Source.

ETA:

Better now?

I would refer back to the idea of naive ignorance to explain their actions. I don't think they are being deliberately hostile just that they are simpletons. Too ignorant to see their own prejudices vs the larger world.


yrs,
rubato

[Lord Jim]

not curious enough or intelligent enough about the larger world to question the assumptions of his tribe. And neither ever learned the skills of self-criticism. ...

Too ignorant to see their own prejudices vs the larger world.

[wesw]

don t forget that the penalty for leaving islam is death......

the Hotel California of religions . you can check out anytime you like , but you can never leave......

you guys are unbelievable.

my god, you attack Christianity when you see the evil that islam is doing thru out the world.

"it s their culture", who are we to object?

pathetic.

[Joe Guy]

don t forget that the penalty for leaving islam is death......
the Hotel California of religions . you can check out anytime you like , but you can never leave......
you guys are unbelievable.
my god, you attack Christianity when you see the evil that islam is doing thru out the world.
"it s their culture", who are we to object?
pathetic.

What's your point?

Does your post have anything to do with the thread subject or are you just blowing blessed Christian smoke out of your sorry ass?...

[Big RR]

You really think you know, or even understand, Islam wes? From what? Websites critical of it?

Have you made a study of the Koran or spoken with any Islamic scholars or imams to try and understand what it teaches? Have you even discussed islam with anyone of that faith? If you did, I think you'd get a very different idea of islam.

Yes, there are some jerks doing terrible things in the name of islam, but there are many, many more moslems that do not. Moslems that are peaceful and hate the excesses probably even more than we do. But you tar islam with a broad brush. Islam is doing evil? No, people are doing evil, just as they have always done. And to judge islam based on the actions of these idiots is ridiculous.

As for attacking Christianity, I would venture to guess it is a religion we are much more aware of than islam; indeed, many of us practice it in one form or another. Personally, I think it is incumbent of fair, broadminded Christians to call the idiotic "Christians" out on their idiocy and hypocrisy; if we don't, how we blame fair, broadminded moselms for not doing the same in the religion they profess?

[rubato]

don t forget that the penalty for leaving islam is death......

the Hotel California of religions . you can check out anytime you like , but you can never leave......

you guys are unbelievable.

my god, you attack Christianity when you see the evil that islam is doing thru out the world.

"it s their culture", who are we to object?

pathetic.

Both Christianity and Islam condemned apostates to death. That's how the inquisition worked.

1. Tell all non-Christians that they have to leave and abandon their homes, land, property &c or convert.
2. When they convert, you find evidence that they are still practicing Judaism or Islam and then torture them to death and take all their stuff anyway.
3. Continue for 400 years.


Great business for the Christian Church, if just a little evil.

Christians were stopped from this practice by heterodoxy and secular liberalism. The west is only civilized today where the church has been stripped of all power over society.


yrs,
rubato