Democratic debate

[rubato]

I don't think it's so much "anybody but Hillary" as it is Sanders' message resonating with many in a disaffected electorate, reflecting the very reason for their disaffection: "For whose benefit is this government being operated? Why aren't the middle and working classes getting a fair share of the economic recovery, while those who are already super-rich profit in outsized proportion? Why are we always told we can't afford what every other industrialized nation has and takes for granted?" While Hillary pledges to work the system to "get things done," Sanders is raising these questions as a direct challenge to the system itself. That's why he talks about a political revolution, and why he draws so much support. He taps into the same vein of frustration with "politics as usual" that Trump does.

It sounds good on its face, and its a movement that is perhaps wide, but rather shallow. What I mean is that the average Bernie voter is not middle and working class, his message is clearly not resonating with that demographic (which is why HRC is ahead nationally). Instead, Bernie is the voice for the college kids and (generally) the educated middle and upper middle class (who may have their own vision of improving life for the middle and working classes). A lot of them are definitely "ABH" in what I've seen them post on social media and heard them say in the press. Far more anti-HRC than HRC folks are anti-Bernie. I also noticed that as a group, they were apoplectic that HRC got such good post-debate press. It was kind of amusing, they blamed it all on the corporate ownership of the media. Maybe that's true, but they never complained when so much of that same media (especially the NY Times) was kissing Bernie's backside (and trying to kick HRC's) all summer . . . . . .

I don't think they are anti-HRC so much as they are defensive about their own choice and inclined to overreact to any slight. I think both camps are symmetrical about how 'anti' the other they are, which is not very.

Bernie's economic program is very differentiated from hers and those with a strong emotional investment in that exact solution are going to be more reactive and less able to accept conciliation than the experienced compromisers in HRCs camp.

I'm not saying its a bad thing.


yrs,
rubato

[Guinevere]

I don't think it's so much "anybody but Hillary" as it is Sanders' message resonating with many in a disaffected electorate, reflecting the very reason for their disaffection: "For whose benefit is this government being operated? Why aren't the middle and working classes getting a fair share of the economic recovery, while those who are already super-rich profit in outsized proportion? Why are we always told we can't afford what every other industrialized nation has and takes for granted?" While Hillary pledges to work the system to "get things done," Sanders is raising these questions as a direct challenge to the system itself. That's why he talks about a political revolution, and why he draws so much support. He taps into the same vein of frustration with "politics as usual" that Trump does.

FWIW, I think we need both voices in the debate, even though I am often (but not always) more of work inside than work outside person. In my experience, both can be equally effective.

[rubato]

I agree the legitimate reasons to dislike her are few, but I recognize there are, and always have been, a lot of people who don't like her (on the Democratic side. I'm not touching the Republican reasons with a 10-foot pole). My Swede, who loves and respects smart educated women, cannot abide her, but he can't articulate it well, except he claims its a trust issue. Whatever, its there, its real, and (I think) it would be silly to pretend it doesn't exist.

Few, but rich and pungent. She is a somewhat amoral selfish carpetbagger (like Bill). Her nasty comment about "stand by your man" shows that she has a tin ear for the lives and concerns of people she despises ( and a lack of personal insight, as it turns out). She will never be an admirable person, like Jimmy Carter. But I think she is currently the best candidate for president.

I would not want to know her personally, like I would like to know Carter, or Obama, or FDR.

yrs,
rubato

[Big RR]

Well the main reason I do not care for her is that I would not want Bill to have any influence or be near the WH again. If I thought she would ignore him I would be much more in her camp, but I don't think that's the case and I really can't stand Bill.

FWIW, Tipper was one of the main reasons I couldn't support Al Gore for president too. When people appear to come as a package you really can't ignore half of it.

[Sue U]

I don't think it's so much "anybody but Hillary" as it is Sanders' message resonating with many in a disaffected electorate, reflecting the very reason for their disaffection: "For whose benefit is this government being operated? Why aren't the middle and working classes getting a fair share of the economic recovery, while those who are already super-rich profit in outsized proportion? Why are we always told we can't afford what every other industrialized nation has and takes for granted?" While Hillary pledges to work the system to "get things done," Sanders is raising these questions as a direct challenge to the system itself. That's why he talks about a political revolution, and why he draws so much support. He taps into the same vein of frustration with "politics as usual" that Trump does.

It sounds good on its face, and its a movement that is perhaps wide, but rather shallow. What I mean is that the average Bernie voter is not middle and working class, his message is clearly not resonating with that demographic (which is why HRC is ahead nationally). Instead, Bernie is the voice for the college kids and (generally) the educated middle and upper middle class (who may have their own vision of improving life for the middle and working classes). A lot of them are definitely "ABH" in what I've seen them post on social media and heard them say in the press. Far more anti-HRC than HRC folks are anti-Bernie. I also noticed that as a group, they were apoplectic that HRC got such good post-debate press. It was kind of amusing, they blamed it all on the corporate ownership of the media. Maybe that's true, but they never complained when so much of that same media (especially the NY Times) was kissing Bernie's backside (and trying to kick HRC's) all summer . . . . . .

It's just my own anecdotal observation of people I know, but I have heard a surprising number of those who are "regular Democrats" -- union trades, teachers, hospital workers, soccer moms & dads -- embracing Bernie and his message. My own spousal unit, a long-time Hillary backer, is going for Bernie this time, much to my surprise and delight. Around my office, it's about 75% Bernie and 25% Hillary (Hillary polls strongest with the paralegals; secretaries and lawyers are supporting Bernie.)

For the record, I have nothing against Hillary, and have always liked her better than Bill anyway (although post-presidency Bill has been easier to abide). To the extent anyone "won" the debate, I think she did -- although the program was clearly not about "winning," but about presenting the candidates and their positions to the voters; and even as a Bernie supporter, I don't have any problem saying I think she presented herself the best. But I'll be voting for Bernie in the primaries because he best reflects my own political views. If Hillary needs my vote in the general election, I will happily provide it. If she doesn't, I will even more happily vote Socialist or Green, as usual.

[oldr_n_wsr]

I will even more happily vote Socialist or Green, as usual.

Commie

[Guinevere]

Around here the Bernie stickers and support (and on my own social media - which admittedly has a lot of overeducated people with strong ties to Vermont) are coming from the wealthier towns and the people I described - highly paid professionals, academics, students, and the like. The union folk, soccer parents, tradespeople are still HRC supporters.

ETA: I need to have a talk with your spouse . . .

[Sue U]

I will even more happily vote Socialist or Green, as usual.

Commie

You must have me confused with someone else.

Around here the Bernie stickers and support (and on my own social media - which admittedly has a lot of overeducated people with strong ties to Vermont) are coming from the wealthier towns and the people I described - highly paid professionals, academics, students, and the like. The union folk, soccer parents, tradespeople are still HRC supporters.

I know, that's what I would have expected, which is why I have been rather surprised. The regular NJ Democrats have always been a Hillary crowd.

ETA: I need to have a talk with your spouse . . .

Go ahead and try; it never does me any good.

[Gob]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. You're getting Clinton whether you want her or not.

[BoSoxGal]

I might have missed it because I was half listening and half doing housework, but at the next debate I'd like to hear both of them discuss the student loan crisis and specifically if they support allowing student loans to be included in bankruptcy, as almost all other kinds of debts are. If we don't get real about providing meaningful relief to the millions of student loan debtors who can't find jobs in their fields or even in other fields that pay reasonable wages, our economy will continue to suffer as those millions can't buy homes, cars, have kids, etc. - it's a national disgrace.

[Long Run]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. You're getting Clinton whether you want her or not.

This scientific poll says otherwise!

[RayThom]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. You're getting Clinton whether you want her or not.

The local vibe still indicates more for than against.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/15/politics/ ... -decision/

[Gob]

Ray,

How to determine which US candidate will win.

Weigh the money they are wasting on this stupid dog and pony show spending on their vital campaigns.

Heaviest pile determines the winner.

[Sue U]

My mom came over for dinner tonight, so I asked her who she was supporting. She said, and I quote:

"Well, I've always liked Hillary, and she's gonna win, so I think I'll vote for Bernie."

[RayThom]

My mom came over for dinner tonight, so I asked her who she was supporting. She said, and I quote: "Well, I've always liked Hillary, and she's gonna win, so I think I'll vote for Bernie."

Is your mom a big fan of the late, great, Yogi Berra?

BTW -- I like very few things about Hillary, so I think I'll vote for Biden in Pennsylvania's primary on April 26, 2016.

[RayThom]

"Joe Biden is sending out an unmistakable “forget-me-not” plea for 2016, brushing past signs of a Hillary Rodham Clinton resurgence with fresh and direct suggestions he could be on the verge of entering the presidential race."

If anyone knows what the Democrats are up to it's PBS.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/bid ... president/

Run, Joe, run.

[oldr_n_wsr]

but at the next debate I'd like to hear both of them discuss the student loan crisis

The next bubble that could damage the already frail economy.
The real problem with the student loan crisis that no one seems to talk about is the reason kids/parents have to take out loans in the first place. That is the astronomical price of colleges.
Thankfully, we put aside money from when the kids were first born to help pay for thier eduacation. There was anough for in stated colleges but the daughter chose to go out of state. She took out loans but has already paid them back (did so in 3 years) and saved enough to buy a house all on her own. But I know many kids/parents who are not in as good shape.

[RayThom]

The undeniable truth. When Joe Chambers talks people listen.
http://socialmediapot.com/2015/10/19/ne ... president/

Yeah, you may ask who the fuck is Joe Chambers? Well, that's exactly what I said.

Run, Joe, run.

[wesw]

will you hush, ray.

Hillary is much more likely to lose.

go back to the beach joe, go back to the beach......

[Econoline]