Uncle Ben's Rice...

[wesw]

and you are not tweedle-dum, guin

I am sorry that I was harsh with you lately

but for realz.., ya lls is whack, yo

[BoSoxGal]

Do you have brown eyes, wes?

[Joe Guy]

If not, he may be a quart low...

[wesw]

blue (edited in the interest of common sense), blue..... (:))

[BoSoxGal]

If not, he may be a quart low...

[Lord Jim]

at least you admit to being an enemy of our constitution and republic. you are honest about it. I admire that.

Sue loves terror and hates freedom Wes...

I'm surprised that a man as astute and perceptive as you didn't pick up on that earlier...

ETA:

Looks like you've been on a right tear this afternoon Wes...

[BoSoxGal]

If wes posts on a holiday and nobody reads it, does it still make a wave in the ocean of thought?

[wesw]

yeah, I m torn. they cut down a huge branch of the neighbors maple tree today. (the tree is at least 5 ft in diameter and my house is the oldest house in town, the tree was part of this property once)

so I m happy that a multi-ton branch is not hanging over my house, but I m sad that the old tree was wounded.

[rubato]

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... sades.html

Meanwhile, the Crusade had evolved into a ponderous machine made up of various elements: the greater nobility, the lesser nobles such as Count Emicho of Leiningen, and the people. It was the last element which proved particularly receptive to the anti-Jewish slogans spreading rapidly among its ranks and it was less amenable to discipline. Although the bishops and prominent nobles were generally opposed to such ideas, they had no wish to see Christians fight Christians over the Jews. Frequently their assistance to the attacked Jews was passive at the most. It was in the region where the crusaders assembled that violence broke out, in the weeks between Passover and Shavuot. The rioting continued until Tammuz (June–July). On the eighth of Iyyar (May 3, 1096), the crusaders surrounded the synagogue of Speyer ; unable to break into it, they attacked any Jews they could find outside the synagogue, killing eleven of them. One of the victims, a woman, preferring death to conversion, the only choice left open by the crusaders, inaugurated the tradition of freely accepted martyrdom. Kiddush ha-Shem , martyrdom for the glory of God, thus became the exemplary answer of Jews threatened in their life and faith by the crusaders. On the 23rd of Iyyar (May 18, 1096) Worms suffered a similar fate. The crusaders first massacred the Jews who had remained in their houses, then, eight days later, those who had sought an illusory refuge in the bishop's castle. The victims numbered about 800; only a few accepted conversion and survived, the great majority choosing to be killed or suicide rather than apostasy. Hearing of the massacre, the Jews of Mainz asked for the bishop's protection, paying him 400 pieces of silver to this end. (the bishop extorts protection money) When the crusaders, led by Emicho, arrived outside the town on the third of Sivan (May 27, 1096), the burghers hastened to open the gates. The Jews took up arms under the leadership of Kalonymus b. Meshullam. Weakened through fasting, for they had hoped to avert the disaster through exemplary piety, the Jews had to retreat to the bishop's castle; however the latter could do nothing for them, as he himself had to flee before the combined assault of crusaders and burghers. After a brief struggle, a wholesale massacre ensued. More than 1,000 Jews met their deaths, either at the enemy's hands or their own. Those who managed to escape were overtaken; almost no one survived. A comparable disaster occurred in Cologne, where the community was attacked on the sixth of Sivan (May 30, 1096). The bishop dispersed the town's Jews in order to hide them in nearby localities: at Neuss, Wevelinghofen, Eller, Xanten, Mehr, Kerpen, Geldern, and Ellen. The crusaders located them and a bloodbath followed. At Trier the bishop could not protect his Jews, as he himself had to go into hiding, and he consequently advised them to become Christians. The great majority refused, preferring suicide. At Regensburg , all the Jews were dragged to the Danube where they were flung into the water and forced to accept baptism. At Metz , Prague , and throughout Bohemia , one massacre followed another. These came to an end when Emicho's crusaders were decisively halted and crushed by the Hungarians, who, incensed by their excesses when they poured through the country, had risen against them. Seeing in this the hand of God, the Jews promptly set about reconstructing their ruined communities. There had been more than 5,000 victims.

" ... Meanwhile, the crusaders had reached Jerusalem (June 7, 1099), and the siege had begun. The city was captured on July 15, with Godfrey entering it through the Jewish quarter, where inhabitants defended themselves alongside their Muslim neighbors, finally seeking refuge in the synagogues, which were set on fire by the attackers. A terrible massacre ensued; the survivors were sold as slaves, some being later redeemed by Jewish communities in Italy. The Jewish community of Jerusalem came to an end and was not reconstituted for many years, ... "

See the link for more.


Hitler merely made use of the murderous anti-semitism of the Catholic Church. He did not invent it.


yrs,
rubato

[rubato]

How does this - "had guns been common in post-WW1 Germany, then the Jews (and gypsies and homos and Christians and....) may not have been so easy to round up."

Translate to this? - ".....it is beyond idiocy to say that a few guns owned by private citizens were going to protect the Jews of Poland"

They would have been just as easy to round up.

So each paterfamilias come out with his little revolver or rifle to stop a company of soldiers armed with automatic weapons? So they are killed on the spot with a ready-made excuse rather than transporting them hundreds of miles and starving them to death. Stupid. The idea that owning a few guns would make a difference is just bone stupid. It requires a superstitious childish belief in the power of a gun; not a military understanding of the power of a gun.

Or they try to barracade their homes, and their homes are burned down over their heads.


Stupid. One of the least intelligent arguments of all time.

yrs,
rubato

[MajGenl.Meade]

Yes, you wrote that EVERY crusade (9 or so) BEGAN with a massacre of Jews in a European city.

What I want to know is the Nine (Ok 8 since we know the first one) cities and dates where a massacre of Jews occurred before the Crusade moved off. I'm not speaking of the atrocities (or arguing them). I'm asking for your "Began" statement to be verified.

Or did you mean "included at some point"?

As to the guns, you continue to use the false (and you know it to be false) example of heavily armed and organized German troops when the issue was joined over the situation before the Nazis took power. Why continue to create false scenarios - unless you have no real argument to make regarding pre 1936 Germany?

[BoSoxGal]

Have you ever visited the Holocaust Museum in D.C., Meade?

I guess I'm not seeing at what point you believe (or Dr. Carson believes, either) that Jews in Germany or elsewhere in Europe could have risen up with personal firearms to prevent the ultimate horrors of the holocaust.

[Guinevere]

Hon, you are not a fish.

But I will drink like one.

I opened a bottle of champers tonight. Two + hours on the phone matching wits with a stubborn MIT engineer (neither Click nor Clack, not much humor). I deserve it

[Lord Jim]

Oh, there goes rube's Hitler-Catholic- Nazi connection again...

I guess he needs another refresher course...

Our rube is a particularly slow learner; this exchange (well, not so much an "exchange" as a flat out factual beat down) goes back two years, and he'd already been fact-smacked on it prior to that ...

(Warning: This is going to be a very lengthy repost, so anyone who knows enough about historical facts to know how full of shit rube is about this, please feel free to scroll past it)

Most Nazis were Roman Catholic, including Hitler.


yrs,
rubato

Most Nazis were Roman Catholic, including Hitler.

~sigh~


"Well, there you go again..."

Hitler may in public have claimed to be doing the will of God, but records of his private conversations show otherwise. Many of these were recorded by his secretary and published in a book called Hitler's Table Talk (Adolf Hitler, London, Weidenfeld & Nicholson, 1953). I have lifted the text of these from the soc.religion.christian newsgroup's Hitler FAQ.

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together....
"The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity....
"Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things." (p 6 & 7)


10th October, 1941, midday

"Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure." (p 43)


14th October, 1941, midday

"The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity....
"Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse....
"...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little....
"Christianity <is> the liar....
"We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State." (p 49-52)


19th October, 1941, night

"The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity."


21st October, 1941, midday

"Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer....
"The decisive falsification of Jesus' <who he asserts many times was never a Jew> doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation....
"Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea." (p 63-65)


13th December, 1941, midnight

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... <here insults people who believe transubstantiation>....
"When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease." (p 118-119)


14th December, 1941, midday

"Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself....
"Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics." (p 119 & 120)


9th April, 1942, dinner

"There is something very unhealthy about Christianity." (p 339)


27th February, 1942, midday

"It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie."
"Our epoch in the next 200 years will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold <its demise>." (p 278)

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mische ... itler.html

In reading through those quotes again, (this is not the first time I have posted them in response to this particular pile of bullshit you have posted..I guess I should save it if you're going to continue to re-post that ignorant crap)

rube, I was struck by how many of the things Der Fuhrer had to say about Christianity sound like things that could quite easily have come out of your mouth...

Looks like you two are pretty much kindred souls on the subject...

Yeah, I know, pearls before swine, but here's another in my series of hopelessly doomed attempts to educate rube; (What can I say, I'm an eternal optimist; I'm also teaching a Rumba class for the neighborhood cats later today) :

In the 1930s, Catholics constituted about one third of the population and Political Catholicism was a major force in the interwar Weimar Republic. Catholic regions generally did not vote Nazi.[1] Prior to 1933, Catholic leaders firmly denounced false Nazi doctrines. After the November 1932 elections, through a process known as Machtergreifung, Adolf Hitler, by political acuity, deceptiveness and threats achieved political office as Chancellor January 30, 1933 via appointment by President von Hindenberg to lead a compromise Coalition with German Conservatives represented by Franz von Papen as Vice-Chancellor. Hitler pledged not to threaten the Reichstag, the political parties, or the churches. Parliamentary elections were scheduled for March 5. Nations and the Holy See accepted the legitimacy of the new government as Church hierarchy sought an accord. A Nazi campaign dubbed Gleichschaltung to eliminate all opposition followed. On 24 March, as Nazi paramilitary surrounded Parliament, Hitler secured the vote of the Catholic Centre Party (led by prelate Ludwig Kaas), the Catholic aligned Bavarian People's Party (BVP) and the DNF (f.k.a. DNVP) for the Enabling Act, granting Hitler "temporary" Plenary powers. Only the Social Democrats rejected the Act.

The Church insisted on its loyalty to the nation, but resisted regimentation and oppression of Church organizations and doctrine while protesting policies such as the sterilization law of 1933. By the death of Hindenberg in 1934, the Reichstag and all non-Nazi political parties were abolished, and a campaign against the Churches ensued. An old guard of Catholic lay political activists were silenced: the Centre Party and BVP dissolved; Erich Klausener and Edgar Jung of Catholic Action, along with the National Director of Catholic Youth and leading Catholic press dissident Fritz Gerlich, were killed in Hitler's Night of the Long Knives purge. Former Centre Party Chancellor Heinrich Brüning, who had been looking to topple the new regime, narrowly survived.

In the long-term, Nazi radicals backed by Hitler, Goebbels, Himmler, Rosenberg and Bormann, hoped to de-Christianize Germany, or distort its theology to their point of view.[2][3] The Reich concordat of July 1933, had pledged to respect the autonomy of the Catholic Church in Germany, but prohibited clergy from engaging in politics, and political opposition from the Church diminished. Hitler welcomed the treaty, but routinely violated it. By claiming jurisdiction over all collective and social activity, the regime interfered with Catholic schooling, youth groups, workers' clubs and cultural societies. It proceeded to close all Catholic institutions which were not strictly religious.[4] Clergy, women and men religious, and lay leaders were targeted. Over the ensuing years thousands were arrested, often on trumped up charges of currency smuggling or "immorality".[5] Hitler was less popular among ordinary Catholics, but Cardinal Bertram developed an ineffectual protest system. Hence, Catholic resistance formed as a matter of individual conscience. Formal Catholic critique of the Nazi regime gradually emerged through the efforts of individual clerics like Bishops Preysing, Galen and Frings.

By 1937, the church hierarchy became highly disillusioned and Pope Pius XI issued the Mit brennender Sorge encyclical. It condemned racism, accused the Nazis of violations of the Concordat and of "fundamental hostility to Christ and His Church".[5] The regime responded by renewing its crackdown and propaganda against Catholics. By 1939 all Catholic schools had been disbanded or converted to public facilities.[6] A 1942 Pastoral Letter of the German bishops characterised Nazi policy towards the Church as "unjust oppression and the hated struggle".

On the eve of war, Pope Pius XII, a former nuncio to Germany, was elected. His legacy is contested. As Vatican Secretary of State, he had advocated for the controversial Concordat of 1933, hoping it would build trust and respect with the regime. He later assisted with the drafting of the Mit brennender Sorge anti-Nazi encyclical. Pius lobbied for peace. In his first encyclical, Summi Pontificatus, he called the invasion of Poland an "hour of darkness".

He affirmed the policy of Vatican neutrality, [He was sitting in the middle of Mussolini's Italy] but maintained links to the German Resistance. A cautious diplomat, controversy surrounding a reluctance to speak publicly in explicit terms about Nazi crimes continues.[7] Pius used diplomacy to aid war victims and lobby for peace, shared intelligence with the Allies and used Vatican Radio and press to speak out against atrocities like race murders.

More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_C ... zi_Germany

A little more education for you rube...

This is excerpted from an excellent scholarly and well researched article on the topic of the National Socialist religion, which can be found here:

http://www.phc.edu/gj_3_schirrmacher_%20ns_%20final.php

In a lecture at a course for the leaders of the youth of the German States it was stated:

"National Socialism is a religion, born out of blood and race, not a political world view. It is the new, only true religion, born out of a Nordic spirit and an Arian soul. The religions still exi­sting must disap­pear as soon as possible. If they do not dis­solve themselves the State must destroy them."[5]

Document 4: An Official Poem

The ‘Confession of Faith’ of the ‘Reichsarbeitsführer’, the Nazi Chief of the united trade unions, Robert Ley, said:

"Once your heart is branded with the swastika, ,
You hate any other cross!
If you identify yourself with your nation,
You laugh at redeemer cranks.
...
Beware anyone one who demands:
'Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself‘'
What the Nazarine demands is our demise..."[6]

Document 5: A Confession

The same Robert Ley proclaimed in his personal ‘confession’ (‘Glaubensbekenntnis’):

"Adolf Hitler! We are united with you alone! We want to re­new our vow in this hour: On this earth we believe only in Adolf Hitler. We believe that National Socialism alone is the saving faith for our people. We believe that there is a Lord-God in Heaven, who created us, who leads us, who directs us and who blesses us visibly. And we believe that this Lord-God sent Adolf Hitler to us, so that Germany may be­come a fundament for all eternity."[7]

Document 6: Song

A widely used song by the ‚Reichsjugendführer’, the Fuehrer of youth in Nazi Germany, Baldur von Schirach:

"Before thee, my Fuehrer
though thousands may stand before thee,
each feels thy eye on himself alone
and thinks, his own hour has come,
when thou sees the depths of his soul.
In those few minutes in thy presence,
we would open every door to thee,
all thoughts we lift to thee,
that thou correct and improve.
So good art thou and so great; so strong and infinitely pure
To thee we reveal without deceit
our hearts’ innocence.
None depart from thee with empty hands,
if thine eyes have touched him with their steely gaze.
We know that thou proclaimeth constantly:
“I am with you – and you belong to me!"[8]

Document 7: Song

Another widely used song of the Reichsjugendführer:

"How often we heard the sound of thy voice
and listened silently, folding our hands,
as every word pierced the depth of our souls.
We know it, one day the end will come,
and free us from force and from need.
What is a year when the era shall turn?!
Where is a law that will stifle our faith,
the pure faith you have bestowed,
that beats as our hearts and guides our existence.
My Fuhrer, thou alone art the way and the goal!”!"[9]

Document 8: Song

The official song of the Hitlerjugend (‘Youth of Hitler’) at the Reichsparteitag 1934:

"We are Hitler’s joyous youth,
What need we Christian virtue!,
Our Fuehrer Adolf Hitler
Is always our redeemer!
No wicked priest can hinder us,
To sense that we are Hitler’s children;
We follow not Christ but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and holy water!."[10]

Document 9: Song

Song by Ernst Leibl:

"We lift our hands
in our direst need.
Lord, send us the Fuehrer,
to avert our doom
with powerful command.
Awaken our hero,
to have mercy on his people,
who walk in darkness,
Sold and betrayed
into enemy hand."[11]

Document 10: Poem

"God
We see no God with long beard
And cane in his hand.
We see only the work of the creator
In our German Fatherland.
We see no Jewish God,
Who elected that people.
We believe in no divine contracts,
Reported in the old Book.
We see no God in the daily crimes,
Committed by His people,
We see God in His acts,
When He gives Germans bread and work.
We do not believe in God’s Words
We do not believe in God’s Book
We believe that man is closest to God in his deeds."[12]

Document 11: Poem

Poem by Max Storsberg:

"Wherever our banner waves,
the Gospel of Germany is preached,
There stand our altars,
There blossoms our faith in you, eternal Germany,
There the deep fountains of our hearts surge
to flow towards the eternity before God’s throne."[13]

I think rubato is trying to run interference for his brothers in the Thule society

LOL ...

No doubt...

The bottom line is this:

If one wants to, one can go on Google and find plenty of public quotes from Hitler and other Nazi leaders, praising Christianity, identifying the Nazi Movement with Christianity, etc...Especially from the late 20's and early 30's...

After the failure of the Beer Hall Putsch in Munich in 1923, after which the Nazis adopted the strategy of coming to power in Germany through electoral means, it would have been politically idiotic for them to alienate themselves from an electorate that was overwhelmingly Christian, (overwhelmingly Lutheran, not Roman Catholic, BTW) by being overtly anti-Christian...

But there is an overwhelming body of available historical evidence that demonstrates conclusively that not only did Hitler and the rest of the leadership of NSDAP have nothing but personal contempt for Christianity, but that (similar to their step-by-step gradual plan for the removal of the Jews from "The Reich"...similar in structure; though obviously not comparable in extent) they had a similar gradualist plan in mind for the de-Christianization of Germany...

Aimed primarily at the German youth...(which was a logical approach to take, given their objective)

A plan which began to unfold shortly after Hitler became Chancellor in 1933, and gained momentum throughout the mid 30's as the Nazis consolidated their power...

The idea was to ultimately replace Christianity with a sort of neo-Pagan, "exultation of the savage beast" philosophy, that borrowed both from Nordic and "Aryan" mythology, and the crank theories of 19th Century racialist cultists...

And it also borrowed from Christian forms...(Adolf Hitler would be the "Christ figure" of this new "religion")

It's a fascinating area of study for anyone interested in aberrant human psychology and the history of the period...(I wrote a 40 page paper about it when I was in College...there are a number of really good books about the Nazi pseudo religion, and a couple of good recent documentaries as well... Rudolf von Sebottendorff's Thule Society that CP references is an important part of the story, but it's only a part of it)

So rube:

If you'd care to come back to this discussion and defend this:

Most Nazis were Roman Catholic, including Hitler.

I'd be more than happy to engage you on the topic; in fact I welcome the exchange...

You can put your knowledge of the subject up against mine...

I look forward to the debate...

Oh rube....

I couldn't help but notice that you found time to return to this forum, (and even time to start a thread with the well known liar and Democratic party hack Paul Krugman as its centerpiece...)

But somehow you didn't find the time to respond to my challenge to you in this thread...

You'll forgive me if I don't start gasping for air, clutching my chest, and keeling over in shock...

Once again you have been thoroughly spanked with the facts, and rather than butch up and admit it, you have chosen, yet again, to slither away...

I neither expect nor require a response from you...

Your silence proves my point...

And then at last, he "responds"...

And gets smacked down again...

From the Obituary for Eric Priebke in the latest "Economist":

"This story has eased his path in the post-war years, when he escaped from a British prisoner-of-war camp, lived under an alias for two years in the Tyrol, and fled to Argentina with forged papers supplied by the Vatican."


The truth is the truth. Liars make excuses for it.

The Nazis only difference from the Vatican is that they did systematically and with modern industrial technique what the Vatican did piecemeal for the prior 1,000 years. They were natural allies and it is no surprise that the Vatican helped many monsters of the WWII era escape justice.

yrs,
rubato

They were natural allies

The truth is the truth.

The Israeli diplomat and scholar Pinchas Lapide concluded his careful review of Pius XII's wartime activities with the following words: “The Catholic Church, under the pontificate of Pius XII, was instrumental in saving the lives of as many as 860,000 Jews from certain death at Nazi hands.” He went on to add that this “figure far exceeds those saved by all other Churches and rescue organizations combined.” After recounting statements of appreciation from a variety of preeminent Jewish spokespersons, he noted. “No Pope in history has been thanked more heartily by Jews.”

At the Eichmann Nazi War Crimes Trial in 1961, Jewish scholar Jeno Levai testified that the Bishops of the Catholic Church “intervened again and again on the instructions of the Pope.” In 1968, he wrote that “the one person (Pius XII) who did more than anyone else to halt the dreadful crime and alleviate its consequences, is today made the scapegoat for the failures of others.” In “The Secret War Against the Jews” in 1994, Jewish writers John Loftus and Mark Aarons write that “Pope Pius XII probably rescued more Jews than all the Allies combined.”

The Pope's efforts did not go unrecognized by Jewish authorities, even during the War. The Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent the Pope a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944, in which he said: “The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of Divine Providence in this world.”

In September 1945, Dr. Joseph Nathan —who represented the Hebrew Commission —stated: “Above all, we acknowledge the Supreme Pontiff and the religious men and women who, executing the directives of the Holy Father, recognized the persecuted as their brothers and, with great abnegation, hastened to help them, disregarding the terrible dangers to which they were exposed.”

Dr. A. Leo Kubowitzki, secretary general of the World Jewish Congress, came to present “to the Holy Father, in the name of the Union of Israelitic Communities, warmest thanks for the efforts of the Catholic Church on behalf of Jews throughout Europe during the war.”

In 1958, at the death of Pope Pius XII, Golda Meir, then Israel's Minister of Foreign Affairs, delivered a eulogy on behalf of the nation of Israel to the United Nations, stating: “We share the grief of the world over the death of His Holiness Pius XII. During a generation of wars and dissensions, he affirmed the high ideals of peace and compassion. During the 10 years of Nazi terror, when our people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with their victims. The life of our time has been enriched by a voice which expressed the great moral truths above the tumults of daily conflicts. We grieve over the loss of a great defender of peace.”

Never were the Jews and the Vatican so close as during World War II. The Vatican was the only place on the continent where they had any friends. The great Jewish physicist, Albert Einstein, who himself barely escaped annihilation at Nazi hands, stated in Time Magazine (December 23, 1940): “Being a lover of freedom, when the Nazi Revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, but the universities were immediately silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks. Then I looked to individual writers... they too were mute. Only the Church,” Einstein concluded, “stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing the truth... I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel great affection and admiration... and am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly.”

http://www.michaeljournal.org/piusXII.htm

There were certainly some individuals within the large bureaucracy of the Vatican that provided aid to escaping Nazis, but to try to present that as somehow representative of the Catholic Church's role, let alone as evidence of some sort of "alliance" represents either a truly putrid level of dishonesty or a deep and profound ignorance of the truth.

I have to admit you've surprised me a little bit rube. I fully expected that having had your earlier bigoted accusations demolished, that rather than attempt to defend them (which of course you have not done) you would just come a long with some new slightly different version that also grossly misrepresents the facts. (I expected this because well, that's what you always do...)

But your usual MO is to do this after waiting a time, (I guess in the hopes that people will have forgotten about your earlier ass kicking) and then tossing out your vile, repugnant false charge in some new conversation....

I really didn't expect you to try to pull this in the very same thread where you already had your ass stomped, tenderized, ground into hamburger, and served up to you on a sesame seed bun....

I guess you're still hungry.....

I also have to confess to being somewhat puzzled as to why an anti-semite such as yourself would have any interest in this topic in the first place...

I guess your hateful desire to smear Christianity in general (and Catholicism in particular) outweighs your contempt for the Jewish religion. I suppose one of the challenges of being an ignorant bigot who hates as many groups you do is the need to prioritize your bigotry...

If taking a dishonest swipe at the Catholics means you have to pretend that you actually care about the Jews, you're prepared to do that....

And that's the last rube was heard from on this subject till now...

[Lord Jim]

Oh, and let's take one more trip down Memory Lane:

Interestingly, the one and only 100% verifiable anti-semite on this board is...

You guessed it...

Good old rube....

Here he is declaring Judaism to be an intrinsically racist religion:

The racism towards blacks is contiguous with their racism towards Palestinians (both Christian and Muslim). And it is tied to their religion.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=8956&p=113300&hili ... on#p113300

I challenge you yet again rube, (he asked for the 5th or 6th time, again expecting no response) to explain exactly what you meant by that, if it wasn't an expression of pure anti-semitism....

Waiting...

[Sue U]

at least you admit to being an enemy of our constitution and republic. you are honest about it. I admire that.

A few years ago, liberty similarly accused liberals generally and myself in particular of having no regard for the Constitution or the rule of law. (Before I even had a chance to answer, Scooter, Guin, Jim and Joe Guy had leaped to my defense.) When I did return to the thread, this is what I said to liberty, which seems to apply equally well here:

As I have said many times, I am not a "liberal;" I am (to you, much worse) a socialist. And I have tremendous respect and admiration for the Constitution as a founding document of this nation and the supreme law of the land; it is brilliantly devised in that it sets forth so little in specifics and so much in principle. As Guin pointed out, I have sworn an oath to uphold and defend it, which I take with deadly seriousness. A substantial part of my work deals directly with Constitutional issues in the context of the courts (from jurisdiction to due process to double jeopardy to free speech to religious establishment/free exercise). But your view of the Constitution as "sacred" is something the founders themselves would have found laughable. They recognized that they were only men attempting to formulate a schematic for the organization of a government in their own time and place. The product of revolution themselves, and versed in the inadequacies of the Articles of Confederation, the founders expected conditions and institutions to change, and many didn't expect the Constitution itself to last for very long. I think the development of a uniquely American conception of judicial review and constitutional jurisprudence has been what has saved the document and preserved its relevance for the last 220-some years. But making a fetish of the Constitution -- while never actually understanding it -- is a sure path to demagoguery and destruction of the very purpose for which it was conceived.

[Guinevere]

I just went back and re-read that thread. "Rage tops grammar" is pure gold, if I do say so myself.

[Lord Jim]

A few years ago, liberty similarly accused liberals generally and myself in particular of having no regard for the Constitution or the rule of law. (Before I even had a chance to answer, Scooter, Guin, Jim and Joe Guy had leaped to my defense.)

I rise again, on this occasion, to come to Sue's defense...

I have absolutely no doubt as to Sue's love of this country, and her respect for the Constitution...

( As wrong headed and misguided as she may frequently be...she's also on the short list of folks around here that I've never met that I'd definitely like to meet up with for a drink... )

I disagree with her on the issue, but if she didn't respect the Constitution, why else would she propose that the 2nd Amendment be repealed?

Repealing a Constitutional Amendment, (as was done in the case of the 21st Amendment repealing the 18th) is a completely Constitutional process...

It is every bit as much a part of the Constitution as any other provision written in it...

The procedures for amending the Constitution are spelled out in the Constitution...

They are clearly delineated in Article V:

The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress

Wes, these provisions are a part of the Constitution that you claim to revere, every bit as much as any other part of the Constitution...

Wanting to amend the Constitution, does not make one an "enemy" of the Constitution; that view represents confused and/or uninformed thinking about the Constitution...

Now, all of that having been said, given the mechanics involved in amending the Constitution, and the prevailing political realities, the chances of the 2nd Amendment being repealed within the living memory of anyone currently alive on the planet are roughly equivalent to my being selected as this year's Rose Bowl Queen...

(Perhaps somewhat less in fact...I do have a stunning pair of legs...and dimples to die for... )

But that doesn't make someone who wants to amend the Constitution an "enemy" of the Constitution, or "our Constitutional rights"...

It makes them someone who understands and respects them...

[Lord Jim]

I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again...

We need to get away from the toxification of the political discourse in this country that defines everyone who you disagree with as an "enemy" or as "evil"...

And respect the integrity of the motives of the folks on the other side of the debate...

Even if they've got their heads completely up their ass...

[Lord Jim]

I'm not trying to defend rubato's statements; he can do that himself

And what, pray tell, leads you to that conclusion?

In nearly 20 years of reading his posts, I've yet to see a single example...

Perhaps you could point one out?