Tell It Like It Is

[Scooter]

oh bullshit, bigsky. if we had less people we would have more resources per person.

that s such crap, bigsky. the same people who champion population control and birth control say that we can t survive without more people.

pure bullshit.

There are certain problems caused by explosive population growth that are mitigated by movement to more modest growth rates. That does not mean that population decline cannot cause different problems.

High inflation is generally considered bad, yes? A low to zero inflation rate is what most mature economies aim for. Deflation, however, can be catastrophic to the economy. In each case, there are winners and losers, the effect is not universally good or bad. Is it so hard to think of population in a similar way?

[Econoline]

If Chris Matthews believes there is any military force in Syria worth joining, he is welcome to go.

Never has there been an expectation that a population forced to flee due to the ravages of civil war must leave behind those of military age so that those powers that led their country to ruin should have a continuing supply of cannon fodder for the disaster they created.

And the idea that someone of 20 or 25 years of age should be literally required to bet his or her life on the integrity of one of the 10 or 12 different factions fighting in this war, that he or she can have some certainty that the ideologies and loyalties of the faction he or she joins are intended to build a better Syria, that there are no hidden agendas or allegiances at work which will not be revealed until it is too late.

Exactly. That's exactly what the young men are fleeing; if they stay they will be drafted by Assad into the Syrian Army. Do you people really want to provide Assad with more cannon fodder? And those who manage to escape the draft and avoid the Syrian authorities are then most likely to be conscripted by one of the terrorist groups fighting against the Assad regime. What were you all saying about no one wanting to send refugees back to their death? Or does it not count if you prevent them from leaving in the first place?

As for keeping them in camps near the country they're fleeing...how's that working out for the Palestinians? So far, so good, huh?

Tell you what, Mr. Matthews, if a 20 year old Syrian answers your call to do his/her duty, and is ordered to commit atrocities against civilians under pain of death, will you pay for his/her funeral?

Or would you rather pay for those civilians' funerals, and then pay for his funeral later?

[Econoline]

Texas GOP lawmaker: Keep Syrian refugees out of our state because it’s too easy to get a gun here

Wait...WHAT???

I am not making this up. This is not a story from The Onion.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/11/texas-g ... -gun-here/

[Econoline]

And speaking of The Onion...

This *IS* from The Onion, in 2003:

POINT/COUNTERPOINT: This War Will Destabilize The Entire Mideast Region And Set Off A Global Shockwave Of Anti-Americanism vs. No It Won’t

http://www.theonion.com/multiblogpost/this-war-will-destabilize-the-entire-mideast-regio-11534





Satire...not-satire...satire...not-satire...satire...not-satire....

I'm so confused.

[liberty]

error.

[liberty]

How can you be so sure that Moslems can not be converted to Christianity?

I'm not. I just haven't seen very many Muslim-Baptist churches around here. Maybe you and your baptist cohorts would be more successful if you went to the Mideast and converted them at the source.Don't forget to report back how you're doing...

.

Are you crazy? Baptist are not into suicide. Once they convert to Christianity they are no longer Moslem. They coming here is a great opportunity to convert them without getting our heads cut off.

[Lord Jim]

P.S. Does anyone else here remember the "Pottery Barn Rule" as enunciated by General Colin Powell? ("You break it, you own it.")

There's certainly something to that...

I will agree that the feckless do-nothing policies that this administration pursued for years towards Syria have contributed mightily to the "breaking" of the country and the current refuge crisis. Our failure to intervene to recruit, train and support an effective secular opposition force at the outset, (as well as to establish in-country safe zones for refugees) created the vacuum that led to the rise of ISIS and turned the refugee flow (that was started by Assad's oppressive response to Syrian demands for political reform) into the current deluge. We certainly have a responsibility to play a leading role in solving this problem, since our inaction played a leading role in creating it.

So where are you going to put them?

I thought I answered that earlier...

First, we...and by "we" I mean the US, our allies in the region who are already engaged with us in the fight in Syria and our major Western allies...(with the US taking the lead; contrary to what the current President believes, in situations like this US leadership is essential) need to provide more material support for the countries bordering Syria who are hosting the bulk of the refugees, to improve conditions and relieve pressure on those countries.

Second, we need to establish and supply in-country safe zones within Syria to accommodate additional displaced.

And third, we then need to do what we should have done four years ago; recruit, train and support (with advisers, trainers, intel and air power) an effective secular opposition force.

Four years ago the task of this force would have been "just" to go up against Assad and either pressure him into a political settlement or displace him by force. Now of course, thanks to four years of US thumb-sucker policy, the task is much larger. In addition to accomplishing that, we and this force must first crush ISIS and the other Islamo fascists that our failure to act sooner enabled to take over large sections of the country.

Then, when the Islamists have been routed, and Assad has been pushed from power either militarily or through a combination of military pressure and a political settlement, the fighting will end and the refugee problem will have its ultimate solution; the return of the Syrian people to their homes.

Then of course, there will need to be a massive, internationally financed, (because the Syrians don't have much in the way of resources to pay for it) reconstruction program for the country.

And once again I repeat, all of this could have been accomplished much earlier, and at far less cost in lives and treasure for all concerned, if only the US had acted sooner...

Every time I see that horrific photo of the child on the beach, I am reminded again of the terrible human cost that American inaction has wrought....



,

[wesw]

don t fight ISIS or you are a baby killer?

bigsky, that is the worst sort of manipulation. you should be ashamed for posting that pic in the way that you did

[Econoline]

OH SNAP

[Big RR]

Jim--that is pretty much what we did in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we see how fabulously that is working out. But just do the same thing and hope for a different result, right?

IMHO we need a more fully formulated policy before we take on Syria, but that is either naval gazing or a feckless do nothing policy, right?

[wesw]

that kinda makes the point against allowing them in doesn t it , econo?

[Lord Jim]

that is pretty much what we did in Iraq and Afghanistan

Actually no, it's not at all what we did in Afghanistan or Iraq, nor are the situations at all analogous...

That's a complete mischaraterization of what I propose...

I'm not proposing putting in hundreds of thousands of US troops, and in Syria we have motivated nationals ready willing and able to take the fight both to ISIS and Assad...(and more can be recruited from the ranks of the refugees)

It is a thoughtful formulation applicable to the internal and external factors of the specific situation in Syria, with a reasonable chance for success, if fully implemented...

It's just not a timid defeatist formulation, unlike the formulations of our feckless, naval gazing President...

[BoSoxGal]

don t fight ISIS or you are a baby killer?

bigsky, that is the worst sort of manipulation. you should be ashamed for posting that pic in the way that you did

Fuck you wesw, quit putting words in my mouth that were never there!


I posted that picture of a child who is was a Syrian REFUGEE in response to people saying we shouldn't take any Syrian REFUGEES.

It had nothing whatsoever to do with the notion that wanting to fight D'aesh (I'm smart enough NOT to give them the title they want) makes anyone a baby killer.

You're an idiot. And a puke. And a xenophobe.

[Lord Jim]

Wes, I don't think your comment was at all fair to BSG...

Shouldn't we - in addition to accepting refugees with generous, loving hearts - be finding some way to help France to wipe out D'aesh/ISIL, and to establish functioning economies that provide hope and opportunity to people who would MUCH rather go back home, if home was a functioning, generally peaceful state?

She's suggesting the exact opposite of " don t fight ISIS"...

She's saying that we should be helping to "wipe them out"...

In fact her position, (at least in general terms) doesn't seem all that far apart from what I have proposed:

1. Provide safe haven for the refugees
2. Act in concert with others (including and especially Syrian nationals) to wipe out the terrorists and re-secure the country so that the Syrian refugees can return home.
3. Provide, (again in concert with others) reconstruction aid to stabilize the country long term.

ETA:

There are essentially four components to what needs to be done:

Humanitarian, military, political, and economic...

The first two components are required to facilitate the implementation of the last two...

[Lord Jim]

In fact wes, here's another example of where BSG takes the exact opposite position of the position you're accusing her of having:

But of course it starts with getting rid of D'aesh, including bombing infrastructure, etc.

It seems to me wes, that an apology might be in order...

[wesw]

ok, I m sorry

if you don t want to take in refugees you are a baby killer?

that s the worst kind of manipulation you should be ashamed of yourself...

...better?

[wesw]

if I had put up a picture of this dead baby and said...

Obama s Syria policy caused this...

what would you have said then?

politics at its worst.

[BoSoxGal]

You are so noble, wesw. I'm sure that in addition to arguing we should never look at pictures of dead refugee children whose deaths are in some part linked to U.S. policies regarding war in the ME, you are probably also the sort who argues we should hide the flag draped coffins of American men and women who die in combat in the ME.

So much more noble than insisting we talk about hard truths and U.S. complicity in the ongoing tragedy of the ME.

[wesw]

at least I know what a question mark means....

[MajGenl.Meade]

Speaking of three-year old children. PBS (that bastion of right wing conspiracy) - Frontline. Yesterday by coincidence

Why Afghanistan’s Children Are Used as Spies and Suicide Bombers

“We here in Afghanistan, we see all the fighters. We learn from them,” says the 17-year-old Afghan boy, holding a gun and swaying back-and-forth. He doesn’t make eye contact as he speaks. “God willing, we want to be like them.”

His name is Naimatullah, and he says he has been trained to carry out a suicide mission. He even has a target, a local pro-Afghan government warlord that his commander wants to kill.

The commander of Chapa Dara district, who has pledged loyalty to the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, says Naimatullah, as well as a 13-year-old named Bashrullah, have been trained to carry out suicide attacks.

“Our commanders get their orders from ISIS,” Naimatullah says. “If they prepare a car bomb, wherever they say do it, I will do it.”

Naimatullah is on the older side, but in the new FRONTLINE documentary ISIS in Afghanistan, ISIS fighters claimed to be teaching children as young as three about jihad.

In a country that has experienced nearly endless conflict for more than 30 years, Afghan children have regularly been recruited, joining militant groups ranging from the Taliban and the Haqqani network, to state-backed militias, and local and national police forces.

But the emergence in Afghanistan of militants aligned with ISIS has only increased the chances of children joining the fighting. With rising violence and insecurity, experts say it will only get harder to protect children from a landscape in which they can be used as couriers, spies, fighters, and sometimes, even suicide bombers.

HOW THEY RECRUIT

“The recruitment and use of children in most places, including in Afghanistan, has to be viewed in the context of widespread poverty, lack of opportunity, lack of access to education and employment, and a complete failure of the rule of law,” says Charu Lata Hogg, policy and advocacy director of the human rights group Child Soldiers International.

The government has limited reach in areas controlled by the Taliban, ISIS’s Afghan affiliate or other insurgent groups. These armed groups employ various methods to recruit children — including coercion, financial assistance, or offering protected status for either the child or his family.

“The Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan have this dynamic where they can force people to give up a child by saying, ‘You can either give us this amount of money — which is usually more than an annual salary — or you can give us one of the kids,” Mia Bloom tells FRONTLINE. “And because the families are quite large, the parents then have to make this Sophie’s choice of which child they’re going to give up.”

Bloom, a professor of communication at Georgia University, is currently co-writing a book called Small Arms: Children and Terror, which examines the recruitment and use of children by terrorist groups. She says that in some cases, families who’ve given up a child to an armed insurgent group like the Taliban might be compensated. In effect, one child is sacrificed for the wellbeing of the family.

For the children themselves, the kinds of compensation or benefits offered are also much greater today than in the past. “It used to be a mobile phone and a gun, and a level of prestige that was accorded,” says Hogg. “Now actual cash is changing hands.”

Another way children join armed groups is through family or social ties. If their father or brother belongs to a group, it’s more likely they’ll join too.

“If groups hold territory and establish an influence in schooling systems, this can be another way through which children can be recruited,” says Leah Farrall, a counterterrorism research associate at University of Sydney. This seems to be the case in the village of Shaigal, where FRONTLINE’s Najibullah Quraishi saw ISIS fighters integrating into local lives and teaching their ideology at the local school.

Insurgent groups and terrorists capitalize “on an environment in which there’s hopelessness, and a lack of feeling that there’s a future ahead of you,” Bloom says. “So, what they’re promising is an afterlife in which everything is perfect.” Because children are too young to be genuinely radicalized, to have an ideology, they are often lured in with food or candy, and the groups reinforce the notion that the children are doing something for the greater good.”

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... 806883.jpg