Little tripper trippin'

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Bicycle Bill
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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by Bicycle Bill »

MG McAnick wrote:
Bicycle Bill wrote: I'll bet your son probably doesn't even remember it any longer.
I'll bet he remembers, quite fondly, unless the pilot tried to scare him, in which case he'll remember, not quite as fondly.
MG — quite seriously, I do not really remember my first airplane ride.  I know I got one; it was a Mother's Day fly-in or something like that at our local airport (LSE) and I remember they were offering short — ten minutes, maybe? — rides for kids at a cost of a penny per pound (cost my Dad all of maybe a buck and that was for both my little sister and me), and even sitting on Dad's lap I was so small that I couldn't see over the instrument panel.

I remember much more about my second flight.  It was 1970, I was fifteen at the time, and I had earned my BSA Eagle rank that year.  Our local BSA council put on a recognition dinner for everyone who had gotten their badge over the previous year, which was preceded by a "career day"-type outing where they would partner you up with someone in the field in which you had an interest.  I had by then become a serious junior wing-nut, to the point that I was telling anyone who would listen that I wanted to become a pilot, so they matched me up with the owner of the local general aviation service.  To make a long story short, we spent an hour or two looking around the hangars, watching some of the operations, paid a visit to the local weather service office onsite at the airport — and then he asked me if I wanted to take an airplane ride. Next thing I know I find myself in a twin-engine Piper Aztec-D on a cargo delivery flight that went from LSE to LOU (Bowman Field) and back, I was the guy in the right-hand seat, and the PIC let me take over the controls for part of the flight.

Yeah, I remember that one... even to the point that I can still recall the aircraft's N-number.
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MG McAnick
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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by MG McAnick »

You obviously remember parts of your first ride because you can tell us the circumstances. You were also younger than wes's son by several years.

I don't remember my first plane ride, but I've been told about it. I was six weeks old. We were moving from Oakland CA to LA. The plane was a DC 3. My father was a pilot for the airline that owned it, although he was not flying it that day. They wanted him to fly out of LA to Korea in DC-4s, so we moved. The airline had a contract to deliver troops for the Korean conflict.

Back to the story... My mother had a baby bottle for me that she wanted a bit hotter than "room" temperature. She asked the stewardess if there was a way to warm it for me. Microwaves had not been invented yet so the stewardess suggested that she warm it by sitting on it.

Hey lady, sit on it"...

I'm sure there was another trip by airliner when we moved to Lon Gyland NY. He had signed on with a new airline. The first plane ride I remember was going from Idlewild (now JFK) to Chicago Midway. ORD was still Orchard airport, and nothing like it is today. I was five, and travelling alone. The stewardess's name was Dottie, and I was extremely bored sitting next to an elderly lady who did not speak English. My mother's sister met me on the other end. I did it again the next summer, during which my father met me at my aunt's town in a Cessna 120 or 140 (It could have been either.) and flew it to his father's place in southern IL. THAT was the first time I remember taking the controls of a plane. I'm sure he had a firm hold on the other yoke.

I've landed at both La Crosse and Louisville, but not on the same trip. Is there flooding at La Crosse, or is that all down river? As I recall, the airport is right on the river.
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Bicycle Bill
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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by Bicycle Bill »

MG McAnick wrote:You obviously remember parts of your first ride because you can tell us the circumstances. You were also younger than wes's son by several years.

I don't remember my first plane ride, but I've been told about it. I was six weeks old. We were moving from Oakland CA to LA. The plane was a DC 3. My father was a pilot for the airline that owned it, although he was not flying it that day. They wanted him to fly out of LA to Korea in DC-4s, so we moved. The airline had a contract to deliver troops for the Korean conflict.

Back to the story... My mother had a baby bottle for me that she wanted a bit hotter than "room" temperature. She asked the stewardess if there was a way to warm it for me. Microwaves had not been invented yet so the stewardess suggested that she warm it by sitting on it.

Hey lady, sit on it"...

I'm sure there was another trip by airliner when we moved to Lon Gyland NY. He had signed on with a new airline. The first plane ride I remember was going from Idlewild (now JFK) to Chicago Midway. ORD was still Orchard airport, and nothing like it is today. I was five, and travelling alone. The stewardess's name was Dottie, and I was extremely bored sitting next to an elderly lady who did not speak English. My mother's sister met me on the other end. I did it again the next summer, during which my father met me at my aunt's town in a Cessna 120 or 140 (It could have been either.) and flew it to his father's place in southern IL. THAT was the first time I remember taking the controls of a plane. I'm sure he had a firm hold on the other yoke.

I've landed at both La Crosse and Louisville, but not on the same trip. Is there flooding at La Crosse, or is that all down river? As I recall, the airport is right on the river.
Looking back on it now, I would have to say "Ditto" regarding my stint at the controls.  I'm sure if I had so much as hiccuped or farted at the wrong time he would have had that aircraft back in his control so fast it would have made my head spin.  But man, did I feel cooler than anything when I retold the story over the next couple of years!!

The flooding is all downriver.  We generally don't get high water until the spring as the ice and snow melts down upriver and in the various lesser tributaries (the Wisconsin River, which drains much of north central Wisconsin, doesn't merge with the Mississippi until Prairie du Chien about 60 miles south).  And judging from what we've gotten so far, it's going to be a dry spring this year.

If it weren't for the lock-and-dam on the west side of the island that the airport is on it would actually be separating the Mississippi River from the Black River; however, the pool created by the dam covers a lower area to the north and creates what is known locally as 'Lake Onalaska'.  The airport itself is built up on "higher" land on the island, as well as diked on three sides.  The dikes were built the last time they were concerned about the airport, back in 1965, when we experienced what I believe was called a '500-year flood' with the river cresting somewhere between 12-15 feet above flood stage.
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Jarlaxle
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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by Jarlaxle »

Ever flown a Pitts Special?
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Bicycle Bill
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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by Bicycle Bill »

Jarlaxle wrote:Ever flown a Pitts Special?
No, but I did get a ride in one of the Red Baron® Squadron Stearmans before they disbanded.
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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by Jarlaxle »

Something you might appreciate...
This past week was the Experimental Aircraft Association’s annual shindig in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, scheduled to bring in some three quarters of a million people from around the world for a week of exhibits, airshow performances, antique aircraft, warbirds, homebuilts, seminars, and general good times. Some dullards have whined that Oshkosh is an example of America’s excess—a bunch of rich people with pricey toys. I have a different take: Oshkosh is the embodiment of the human spirit.

More than a few aviation pioneers died for their troubles, yet this only seemed to spur the survivors to redouble their efforts. In 1896, following a fatal crash from 50 ft., glider experimenter Otto Lilenthal's last words were "Sacrifices must be made." News of Lilenthal's death inspired Wilbur Wright to pick up the torch and begin experiments with flying machines.

When I look upon the lovingly restored planes of the ‘20s and earlier, I recall the stories my mother told me of the smell of butyrate dope that wafted out of the garage a few doors down the street when she was a little girl. That was where a young Charles Lindbergh was renting space to re-cover surplus WWI airplane wings, on a personal journey that would eventually lead to his triumphant solo flight from New York to Paris in 1927.

But more than anything, Oshkosh is about freedom. Whenever you find a country where individuals build and fly their own airplanes, you find a lot more freedom than in countries where only government factories and engineers can produce aircraft.

If you go to Oshkosh during the last week of July and wander around amongst the parked airplanes, you might meet a man from Florida who looks a bit like a gnome and, if you are under 45, that you might mistake for your favorite grandfather. This is the one man in all of aviation who, at the height of the Cold War, single-handedly humiliated the entire Soviet and Eastern Bloc aircraft industry, and arguably their whole governments. His name is Curtis Pitts.

I first heard about Curtis when I was nine years old, looking through a book called The Aircraft of the World. It was my dad’s, and he had put a red check mark next to the picture of every plane in the book that he had piloted, from 65 horsepower trainers to four engine transports to jet fighters. When I saw this I asked him which one was the best plane he had ever flown.

"That depends on what you want to use it for. The best fighter? The best for hauling people? Or the best for training?"

I thought for a moment. "The best flying. The one that you want to just get in to go fly."

"The Pitts Special" he answered without hesitation. "Nothing flies better." He told me about it. The Pitts Special, he said, was an airplane conceived in 1941 by a young man who had been told that the big 1930s Waco biplane was the best mount for aerobatics, had then flown one, and thought he could do better. A lot better.

The construction of Curtis Pitts' original Special was interrupted by WWII and it wasn't finished until shortly after the war ended in 1945. It had 45 horsepower and had been built for the designer’s enjoyment (he had a crop dusting business for a day job) but he built a few subsequent planes in the ensuing years for interested customers. Dad showed me a picture of one. It was a tiny single-place biplane, with a seventeen foot wingspan. He said you could fit three of them in a hangar that would hold one Cessna 150.

The second Pitts Special that Curtis constructed had 85 horsepower and was eventually sold to Betty Skelton who used it to win the Women’s International Championship (called the "Feminine International Aerobatic Championship") in 1949 and 1950. He also designed and built a big version of the Special called Samson in 1948 for an airshow pilot customer. This Pitts used a surplus 450 HP Pratt & Whitney radial engine and would outclimb every fighter aircraft produced during the Second World War. It was destroyed in a fire in 1952.

By the 1960s, international aerobatic competition was heating up and the Eastern Bloc countries were letting American men enter their contests, knowing that the only planes we had to compete in were underpowered WWII biplane trainers like the Waco or Stearman, and modified underpowered civilian trainers, like the clip-wing Cub or Taylorcraft. These planes were at a huge disadvantage to the powerful, purpose-built aerobatic competition aircraft like the Yak and the Zlin that were engineered by massive State-sponsored design bureaus.

American amateur aerobatic pilots who remembered Betty Skelton's remarkable aerobatic flying in the tiny Pitts Special more than a decade earlier convinced Curtis Pitts to produce a set of detailed construction drawings of the Special so they could build their own competition machines. He did, at $125 per set. The plane could handle any engine from 85 to 180 horsepower, and enthusiastic Americans got busy hacksawing aircraft tubing and cutting spruce. By the late 1960s the Pitts Special was a common sight at U.S. airshows and fly-ins.

It was also embarrassing the competitors on the other side of the world. When fitted with a 180 horsepower engine, the 690-pound Pitts had an amazing power to weight ratio, and the airframe itself was tremendously strong. The little buzz bomb could fly straight up farther than the competition, perform tighter maneuvers, and do them more quickly. The Pitts began winning, and by 1972 both the Men’s and Women’s Individual World Champions were Americans flying Pitts Specials.

Think about that for a moment. Imagine it's the late 1960s, and purpose-built competition aerobatic aircraft are being produced by Boeing, McDonnell-Douglas, Grumman, General Dynamics, and Northrop. These planes dominate aerobatic competition in this country. Then a bunch of Russians show up, flying homemade planes built in sheds and living rooms by the pilots themselves, and the Russians start winning. These planes are plans-built copies of an aircraft designed a quarter century earlier for his own personal amusement by some crop duster named Vladimir, working out of his barn in the Ukraine, with hand tools and in his spare time between dusting runs.

Americans might find such a story amusing and uplifting, but it drove the Russians absolutely crazy.

They hated the Pitts Special, but the only way for Russian pilots in Russian planes to compete with it was to greatly exceed the design limitations of their aircraft. All of the design limitations. If the airspeed limit was 190 MPH, they started doing 280. If the G limit was 6 Gs positive and 3 Gs negative, they would pull +9 and push -6. This kind of abuse had predictable results, and the former Men's World Champion, Victor Letsko of the Soviet Union, was killed when he tore the wings off his Yak 50 in midair just ten days before the opening of the 1978 World Aerobatic Championships.

The Soviet government sent out word to their design bureaus that creating an aircraft that would beat the Pitts was top priority, the checkbook was open, and failure would not be tolerated. Out came powerful designs that made liberal use of titanium, magnesium, and other exotic materials. Vertical penetration had become the key to winning competitions, and so they concentrated on sleek, powerful monoplanes that didn't have the drag-inducing struts and bracing wires of the tiny home-built Pitts.

In order to wring the last bit of competition performance from their planes, the Russian designers had to make compromises that resulted in flying qualities that would be unacceptable to most pilots. Gone are the flight characteristics that make a Pitts such a joy to fly.

The ultimate result of all this feverish development was the Sukhoi SU-26, designed and then in 1984 built by the same factory that produced the SU-27, the Russian equivalent of the McDonnell-Douglas F-15 supersonic fighter. Now that the Soviet Union has collapsed, you can buy an SU-26 if you want. A 1940s era biplane just can’t compete in unlimited-level competition with a purpose-built craft like the Sukhoi. (For that, you need to go to Guthrie, Oklahoma, and talk to Bill Zivko, designer of the Zivko Edge 540. This is the plane Curtis Pitts says is better than a Sukhoi, designed by the American voted Most Likely to Send Another Generation of Russian Aircraft Designers to the Gulag.)

What’s Curtis been doing since designing the Pitts Special? In the late 1960s came a two-place version, the S-2, which Curtis certified and set up a factory to build. The first production one appeared in 1971. Then he certified the single place S-1. He eventually sold the factory, and the planes are currently produced by Aviat. The S-2 became (and still is) the premier aerobatic training aircraft in the world. Along the way Curtis designed a monoplane racer in 1949, and other craft, mostly aerobatic biplanes, around different engines, such as the S-1-11 using the 300 HP Lycoming.

In 1996, at age 80, Curtis got his hands on an aerobatic Russian radial engine from a Sukhoi (probably the best engine in the world for an aerobatic aircraft) and designed and built an appropriate-size Pitts biplane around it. This is the Pitts Model 12, his twelfth design, which I think of as a modern Samson. It uses everything Curtis has learned in the last fifty years about building aerobatic biplanes. As before, folks are buying plans to build it themselves, and over 200 are under construction with about fifteen flying so far. Go here to the Kimball website if you’re interested, or want to have them build a Model 12 for you. I had the Kimballs build one for me in 2001. It is the best airplane I have ever flown. It goes vertical like a rocket. Dad would have loved it.

Curtis Pitts is long retired from crop dusting but he's still doing design work out of his skunk works in Homestead, Florida. The short man who has cast such a long shadow over the world of aviation will be 88 on December 9, as he was born twenty days before my late father.

I can't wait to see the next design that comes out of the master's shop.
John Ross 8/4/03
Curtis Pitts died in 2005, age 90.
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MG McAnick
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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by MG McAnick »

Very interesting Jarlaxle. I had never read the history of Pitts or his planes. I have been aware of them for at least three decades. A friend, actually the boyfriend of a friend of mine, used to fly an S-1 in competition. His name was Charlie. My friend was artistically adept, and drew a picture of Charlie Brown on each side of the vertical stabilizer with the caption "If life is just a bowl of cherries, why am I always in the Pitts. No apologies were given to Irma Bombeck. I've never been in one, but it would be fun.

I have been to Oshkosh a few times. Always enjoyable, except for the one time that I tried to convince Mrs Mc that camping under the wing of our Cessna 170B would be fun. It rained for three days. We moved into a university dorm room after the 2nd night. At least it saved our marriage. That was in '85. So far, so good.

My whole airport used to empty out during Oshkosh week, but as the residents grew older it's not so prevalent anymore.
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Big RR
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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by Big RR »

AFAIK the only person I ever scared was the husband of one of my best friends. She was in the back seat, and kept saying things to calm him as we came into to my home airport. He wasn't ready for landing between hangars lining the runway 120' apart. I'll admit they do seem close as you land.
That reminds me of flying years ago; in my teens I was a member of Civil Air patrol an we had Piper J3 and a number of pilots (including a CFI); the reason I joined was that he gave free flight lessons to members in the J3. I got to the point of soloing a few lights (about 18 hours overall) and he left; I never had the money to finish (and afterwards the time), but I do recall the flying fondly.

The Airport we flew out of was an uncontrolled (they supposedly had unicom, but it was never on and we had no radio in the plane) field with an unpaved runway. The usual approach (depending on the wind) involved descending over some high tension power lines at one end of the runway, and while the towers probably weren't higher than 50 feet or so) they seemed a lot closer when I made my first landing (and on my first solo flight when I was almost sure I would hit them). That was a long time ago, but about 25 years ago a commercial pilot who took people up in a biplane for a tour of NYC hit the wires on a landing, killing himself and his passenger, and the airfield closed shortly thereafter.

Jarlaxle
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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by Jarlaxle »

Another one you might appreciate, Bill and MG...someone brewed up a custom acro plane. Starting with a surplus Stearman with a seized engine, it was extensively modified: wings clipped, ailerons on all 4. Continental engine replaced with a P&W Wasp from a Texan that was set back 3", heavily massaged (described later as "done up like a Reno unlimited"). The landing gear was extended a bit, and fitted with oversized tires in streamlined spats, for landing on dirt strips and so the oversized prop would clear the ground on takeoff. While not especially fast (topped out at 265), the fire-breathing Wasp meant it climbed like a rocket. So...sound like something you might want to take for a spin? Or a hammerhead...or a barrel roll...? :)

I figure it would be a real handful on takeoff!
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MG McAnick
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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by MG McAnick »

I think all of the Stearmans now flying were among those surplused by the Army Air Corps after WWII for as little as $50. They made over 10,000 of them. Once the war was over, they didn't need a gas guzzling bi-plane trainer anymore.

A LOT of them have been retrofitted with bigger engines. Some became crop dusters. They are still a favorite among those flying on the airshow circuit. Even a stock Stearman is well stressed enough for aerobatics. The first time I rode in one, the pilot did loops and rolls.

The son of my former next-door neighbor restored one about 20 years ago. He sold it for enough $$ to buy his first house. The house has not appreciated as fast as the airplane. He could buy two houses like his for the money that Stearman would bring today.

Here is an interesting article, partly about them. http://www.agairupdate.com/article_deta ... l=00000361
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Jarlaxle
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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by Jarlaxle »

SO...you up for trying to pull 9.5 Gs in one? :D
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oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

My father (and I) have been trying to find a stearman (PT17?) kit RC plane. Anyone know of where one might be? We have tried all the usual hobby places (Tower Hobbies, Great American planes, etc).
Not RTF (ready to fly) or ATF (Almost Ready To Fly) he wants to build it himself. Gas engine (actually nitro) in the .40 to .60 range.

Even just the plans would be great.

MG McAnick
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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by MG McAnick »

Try searching ebay for stearman radio control airplane. Have you considered one of the new electric RC planes? Cheaper for sure. Maybe a little too quiet.
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Crackpot
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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by Crackpot »

RC electric has come a long way in the past decade or so
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

oldr_n_wsr
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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

My dad wants to have the fun of building the plane and everything I have googled/searched/found are ARF or RTF and mostly electric. He wants a nitro. He flies off the lake and needs the power of a gas engine to take off (especially if there is a little chop).
He just got an electric something or other that he will be trying out on the lake in the spring. We shall see. I have registered at two model rc forums so maybe they will come through.

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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by Crackpot »

I just got back into RC cars and I'm frankly shocked at what brushless and lithium ion batteries have changed both in speed and battery life
Okay... There's all kinds of things wrong with what you just said.

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Re: Little tripper trippin'

Post by oldr_n_wsr »

Crackpot wrote:I just got back into RC cars and I'm frankly shocked at what brushless and lithium ion batteries have changed both in speed and battery life
Amazing isn't it. And hte low cost of the radio equipment. I remember building a heathkit transmitter/receiver and it costing hundreds of dollars and only 3 channels. Even more money to add/build the servos. Still have that system although the batteries are dead.

I have two boats I run on the lake. One is the Atlas Van lines Hydroplane which I named Miss Becks and a SK Daddle with .40 engine. I had more fun building them than running them but they are fun just the same. Also have an Aeromaster plane (similar to the pitts special) which I only wrecked twice. Once when I was flying inverted and towards me and I got mixed up on what was up/down and left/right. The other was when the radio cut out and it flew into a tree. Not too bad damage either time.
Dads been flying RC since servos were wound up rubber bands with an on/off switch.

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