Trump Attacks the Pope

[Joe Guy]

Trump's feud with the pope is the greatest moment in presidential campaign history
Brad Reed

Donald Trump’s campaign for president has been a lot like the film Evil Dead 2 in that it’s switched rapidly back and forth between abject horror and slapstick comedy. Today has been one of the funnier moments, however, as Trump found himself in a verbal joust with Pope Francis.

Yes, you read that correctly.

To be fair to Trump, the pope started this feud when he said that Trump “is not Christian” given his past comments such as calling Mexican illegal immigrants “rapists” and proposing banning Muslims from entering the United States.

“A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian,” the pope said, per The New York Times.

If you expected Trump to take this sort of thing lying down… actually, scratch that, there’s no way you could expect Trump to take this lying down. He immediately fired back at the pope by calling him a disgrace.

“For a religious leader to question a person’s faith is disgraceful,” Trump said. “No leader, especially a religious leader, should have the right to question another man’s religion or faith.”

Of course, Trump isn’t above questioning someone else’s faith. In fact, it was less than a week ago when he sent out the following tweet about rival candidate Ted Cruz:

Now, I’m not a religious person myself but if you asked me whether the pope or Donald Trump is more qualified to judge the sincerity of someone’s Christian faith, I’m pretty sure the His Holiness would take the crown hands down.

Trump also implied that the pope leads a weak church that doesn’t win anymore and that needs someone like Trump to rescue it. Specifically, he said that “if and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which as everyone knows is ISIS’s ultimate trophy, I can promise you that the pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been president.”

And really, this is Trump bringing his A-game. The only way it could have been better would be if he’d bashed the Holy Roman Empire for getting “schlonged” by Napoleon at the Battle of Austerlitz. Maybe if Trump fails in his quest to be president, he can move to Italy and start his campaign to make the Vatican great again by pledging to bring back the Inquisition.

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[Lord Jim]

Well...

I'm a big fan of Pope Francis, and uhh, not a big fan of Donald Trump's...

And I've made pretty clear what I think of Trump's ugly, fear mongering, and wildly impractical proposals for dealing with illegal immigration..

But I have to say that I find this:

“A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian,”

A highly questionable and unfortunate comment coming from The Pontiff...

There are many ways that he could have expressed his displeasure and disapproval with a proposed policy, without proclaiming that those who disagree with him about it cannot qualify as Christians...

This is a Pope, who has frequently made a point of saying that it is not for him "to judge" regarding what is in the hearts of others...

And yet, apparently in this case, he is prepared to make an exception...

there’s no way you could expect Trump to take this lying down.

Yeah, well who would?

And I'm doubly irritated by this, because the whole bruhaha actually works to Trump's advantage...

It gets him more press attention, and if even somebody like me, who absolutely detests the man thinks this was an inappropriate attack, (of course as the article pointed out, Trump himself has made similar attacks against his rivals...but then he isn't the spiritual leader of the world's largest Christian Church) it's probably going to help him more than hurt him...

Of course, in typical Trumpian fashion he has rhetorically overreacted, calling the Pope "disgraceful"...(I'd go with "disappointing"...)

But I expect more of my Pope than I do of Donald Trump....

[Bicycle Bill]

In this case, LJ, I think Pope Francis is using the term "Christian" to mean "like Christ".  Christ practiced what he preached when he said "love thy neighbor as yourself".  He did not shun Mary the Magdelene, instead forgiving her and preaching the doctrine of "hate the sin but love the sinner".  He did not refuse to associate with those who shared his humble origins; as the son of a carpenter he drew his followers and disciples from others who were men of the earth, not men of power.  He sought out and ministered to those the rest of society marginalized, curing the blind, the lame, and the sick without asking their origin or backstory; all he asked was that they truly believed and had faith.  He preached and practiced compassion to all — consider the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37), or the time when he healed the son of a Roman centurian (Luke 7:1-10).

Now check Trump's remarks and record concerning immigrants (even legal ones), Muslims, the poor, and others.  I think the pontiff was spot on with his remark, and Trump would be better off if he just backed off and made as if this never happened.

-"BB"-

[Lord Jim]

In this case, LJ, I think Pope Francis is using the term "Christian" to mean "like Christ".

Then I wish he had actually said that...

This:

“A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not acting like Christ would,”

Would have been a whole lot better...

[Scooter]

BB is correct - you hear people every day of the week using similar language when they see behaviour that is not Christ-like, i.e. compatible with the teachings of Christianity. "That wasn't very Christian of you," and the like. It is a reaction to observed behaviour, not an attempt to see into someone's soul, and no one intends it to be an accusation of apostasy, even when it's the pope. And Trump now having spun it this way is a whopper even by his mendacious benchmark.

Note that the pope did not say, "that person would not be a Christian" - which would connote a separation from the Church and/or a an abandonment or renunciation of one's faith.

[Scooter]

Which is not to say that previous popes have not identified beliefs, actions, etc. deemed to be incompatible with being a Catholic - it happened with some regularity until recent decades. Pius XI wrote encyclicals regarding events in Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. He named several elements of Nazi ideology that he said were completely at odds with what it meant to be a Catholic. Closer to the current case, without identifying him by name, Pius XI called Mussolini a Catholic only by name and baptism, which vows he had broken. Pius XII issued a decree in 1949 that imposed excommunication on anyone belonging to or in any way supporting or connected to a communist party; it was not revoked until 1983. Since Trump has now decreed that it is "disgraceful" for a religious leader to question another person's faith, will he say that these popes were wrong to question the faith of Fascists, Nazis and Communists ?

Trump's Mexico policy would appear to have been inspired by the parable of the good Samaritan, except that he saw the priest and the Levite as the heroes of that story.

[MajGenl.Meade]

Trump got the wall idea from the Vatican

[Lord Jim]

I really am very uncomfortable defending Trump, (it's kind of like when I find myself agreeing with rubato...I just want to stop doing it as quickly as possible) but Scooter, here's the difference I see:

"That wasn't very Christian of you," refers not to the person but to the action...

Something comparable would be if the Pope had said:

“A policy that is only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not very Christian,”


The candidate who handled this the best yesterday, was Kasich, at a town hall last night with Anderson Cooper on CNN:

Kasich said, “Put me down in the pro-pope column. Really, I mean come on.”

He continued, “This guy has been so humble,” adding, “He has opened the walls and the doors of the church to lots of people who didn’t understand it.”

Referring to the pope’s criticism of Trump’s border plan, Kasich said, “We have a right to build a wall, but I got to tell you there are too many walls between us. We need bridges between us if we’re going to fix the problems in Washington, because all they do is have walls.”

He was the only candidate who seized on the word "only" regarding "walls" and made the point about the need for "bridges" as well.

ETA:

But again, the thing I dislike the most about this kerfuffle is the way it worked to Trump's advantage...

With just two precious days to go before the primary, the big news yesterday could have been about Rubio regaining his momentum, and the story of a Republican Cuban-American Presidential candidate campaigning with a Republican Indian-American Governor, and a Republican African-American Senator...

Or about the way John Kasich has surged from the low single digits to the mid-teens in the polls in a state where he wasn't expected to do well, and where he had almost no organization and really hadn't started campaigning until a little over a week ago...

But instead, what dominated the news cycle?

Donald Trump and the Pope...

Any day the press is focusing on Trump, (no matter what the reason) is a good day for Donald Trump...

[wesw]

actually, the pope , in mexico, went to the poorest most dangerous areas.

he went to the un-catholic south.

he went to the depths of mexico city s poverty. he went to Juarez.

balls of steel this pontiff has.

he went not under bullet proof glass, but in a golf cart to the heart of mexico city s problems..., and he spoke truth.

he told the people to stay home and fight to make their country better, into a place where they didn t want to leave.

he spoke against the cartels, openly and at great personal risk.

...and he never said trump wasn t a Christian, and he said he gave him the benefit of the doubt.

it was not reported that way on CNN. they said "pope says trump isn t Christian."

trump unfortunately spoke . if he had listened he would see that he and the pope aren't far apart. fix your own house.help your neighbor to fix his house, if only so that he isn t sleeping in your foyer. easy peasy.

he should have listened. if he had spoken he should have told the pope about that big beautiful door in the wall...

just a miscommunication, not an ex-communication..., nothing to see here..., move along

[Big RR]

Trump didn't just speak; he made an ass of himself. Nothing really new, but saying the pope would "pray that Donald Trump was president" when ISIS marched on the vatican? Please. And this guy really thinks he can deal with national and world leaders?

And Jim, I agree with you about the difference between criticizing the sin and the sinner; I'm not sure what the pope meant here, but it would have been better if he was clearer.

[oldr_n_wsr]

but it would have been better if he was clearer.

Might have been better if he stayed out of it.
But that's just my opinion.

[Fafhrd]

I would always be careful when reading quotes from the Pope. He speaks English, badly, I understand. Was his comment made in English? Or was it in Spanish (in which case, we may have to blame the translator)?

[Burning Petard]

A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian

Does nobody here READ? To recall part of my recent initiation ordeal to join this motley band, What is the 5th word in the sentence above?

Trumps thinks about lots of other stuff, for example, the essential importance of Public Domain (particularly for private use), the amazing stupidity of everyone else, the creative ways he stood up to President Bush and was against the war in Iraq.

Of course he is a Christian. There are no requirements to be familiar with the difference between a communion tray and an offering plate, or the correct nomenclature for the epistles of the New Testament. To be a Christian is all a matter of self-identification, just like the requirements to be a Republican. To be a disciple of Jesus is a different matter.

Snailgate

[Econoline]

From what I understand Papa Francesco was answering a direct question during a news conference on his plane on the way home from Mexico. And yes, he did answer in Spanish.

[Big RR]

oldr--I would think this is the sort of social issue a pope should speak out on; is there a reason you think he should avoid it?

Burning--I agree being a Christian is matter of self identification; not sure what you mean by disciple of jesus, but I guess it could be something some organization culd claim control of (much like being a Kiwana or member of the Moose Lodge). However, my understanding is that the RC church believes it is the true and apostolic church handed down by jesus to St Peter et al., so it's hard to say what the pope meant by christian.

Likewise, re the use of "only", I do think it has to be in context--such as "only" thinking of walls and not bridges. Everyone thinks of other stuff--from other political positions to mundane things like eating or using the bathroom. Clearly no one thinks about only a single thing.

[wesw]

“A person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not of building bridges, is not Christian. This is not the gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this is man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and I will give him the benefit of the doubt.”

[oldr_n_wsr]

oldr--I would think this is the sort of social issue a pope should speak out on; is there a reason you think he should avoid it?

He's entering into politics.
And with the walls the vatican has, just a little hypocritical.

[MajGenl.Meade]

May be my drugged ears, but didn't Kasich slip last night and refer to the man once as "St Francis"?

[Big RR]

Well oldr, what you see as politics, I see as social justice. If he said no one should be allowed to starve to death when some have more than enough food, it might be politics, but it is far more social justice, and it's something I think churches and other religious institutions should speak out on. There's very little you can speak out on that does not interface within the broad class of "politics".

[RayThom]

"Basically nothing can bring Trump down. Don’t expect the pope feud to be any different."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... different/