Trump Attacks the Pope

[Joe Guy]

From what I understand Papa Francesco was answering a direct question during a news conference on his plane on the way home from Mexico. And yes, he did answer in Spanish.

That's correct! Here is the Pope's actual quote in Spanish -

"Un hombre quien solamente thinkos abouta el wall constructo y no bridgeo constructo es no follero de Cristo. Es no gosipolo jowever. Yo givo el Trumpo benefito de doubtamundo."

It's important to know exactly what the Pope said before commenting.

[Long Run]

I agree with Jim that the real problem is the Pope made himself a tool for Trump to dominate the news for a couple of days. The right/wrong, whose point is better, is completely missing the point of the Pope's blunder. I'd add that the Pope doesn't do himself or his church any favors by lowering himself to engage someone like Trump.

[Bicycle Bill]

From what I understand Papa Francesco was answering a direct question during a news conference on his plane on the way home from Mexico. And yes, he did answer in Spanish.

That's correct! Here is the Pope's actual quote in Spanish -

"Un hombre quien solamente thinkos abouta el wall constructo y no bridgeo constructo es no follero de Cristo. Es no gosipolo jowever. Yo givo el Trumpo benefito de doubtamundo."

It's important to know exactly what the Pope said before commenting.

Joe, I don't speak the language but that looks like very poor Spanish to me.
In fact, it looks more like some sort of bastard dialect of Spanish and Italian (the Vatican is in Rome, remember) with some Latin and Esperanto thrown in for good measure.

-"BB"-

[oldr_n_wsr]

Well oldr, what you see as politics, I see as social justice. If he said no one should be allowed to starve to death when some have more than enough food, it might be politics, but it is far more social justice, and it's something I think churches and other religious institutions should speak out on. There's very little you can speak out on that does not interface within the broad class of "politics".

He knew who he was targetting with the statement.

[wesw]

pidgin ..., it ain t just for breakfast anymore.....

[Big RR]

Well oldr, Trump is not the only person who has called for a wall, not a bridge. then again, I don't know what question he was answering. But face it, he didn't call Trump out by name or criticize some of his rhetoric--even though it would have been easy to do so had he wanted to.

Personally, I admire his restraint.

[Lord Jim]

he didn't call Trump out by name

No, but it's clear when you include the (very loaded) question that was asked, that he knew who he was being asked about:

Here's what the reporter said, according to the Catholic News Agency's transcript:

One of the candidates for the White House, Republican Donald Trump, in an interview recently said that you are a political man and he even said that you are a pawn, an instrument of the Mexican government for migration politics. Trump said that if he’s elected, he wants to build 2,500 kilometers of wall along the border.

He wants to deport 11 million illegal immigrants, separating families, etcetera. I would like to ask you, what do you think of these accusations against you and if a North American Catholic can vote for a person like this?

And here's Francis's response:

Thank God he said I was a politician because Aristotle defined the human person as 'animal politicus.' At least I am a human person. As to whether I am a pawn, well, maybe, I don't know. I'll leave that up to your judgment and that of the people.

And then, a person who thinks only about building walls, wherever they may be, and not building bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. As far as what you said about whether I would advise to vote or not to vote, I am not going to get involved in that. I say only that this man is not Christian if he has said things like that. We must see if he said things in that way and in this I give the benefit of the doubt.

http://www.vox.com/2016/2/19/11073026/d ... pe-francis

(It pains me of course to quote vox.com, but they are quoting the Catholic News Agency, and they had the most complete version of the exchange I could find...)

[Big RR]

Thanks for the more complete transcript Jim, but I credit Francis for not attacking Trump directly, only criticizing the ideas which were attributed to Trump by the questioner. He refused to say someone shouldn't vote for Trump (cudos for that) and even gave Trump the benefit of the doubt as to being misquoted/misunderstood/etc. I would imagine he knew who Trump was and some of his statements on these issues, but he didn't take the bait and attack him directly, only the ideas.

Contrast this with Trump's statements in response, including his sidetracking the issue to an ISIS one when the question was directed to illegal immigration and deportation of persons already here.

[Econoline]

No, he didn't say it...but he might have been thinking it:

[BoSoxGal]

I just came to this thread with that cartoon's link copied to share here, but of course you beat me to it, Econo!

[Lord Jim]

[Scooter]

oldr--I would think this is the sort of social issue a pope should speak out on; is there a reason you think he should avoid it?

He's entering into politics.

So has every pope, cardinal and bishop who spoke out against legalizing divorce, abortion, euthanasia, stem-cell research and same-sex marriage.
And whether or not they are criticized for it, and by whom, is entirely dependent on whose ox is being gored.

For example, when was Trump heard to have said that the pope had no right to question the faith of those who commit religiously inspired violence? Poor Donald was all butthurt when the pope said that his ideas were not those of a Christian man. Where were the Donald's protestations months ago when while in Africa he denounced religiously-motivated violence and said that those who committed it could not have been motivated by religion because they do not believe in god:

“We are well aware that the recent events and acts of violence which have shaken your country were not grounded in properly religious motives,” he continued. “Those who claim to believe in God must also be men and women of peace.”

And with the walls the vatican has, just a little hypocritical.

Those that surround what is now Vatican City were built in stages to defend an outcropping of land that was annexed to Rome and lay outside the Aurelian Walls. The walls became a convenient border for the new Vatican state because the buildings within them were the seat of the Church's government.

And of course, a wall-free boarder runs across the entrance to St.Peter's Square, indicated only by a line painted on the pavement. No border guards, no passport control, no motion detecting machine guns ready to cut anything that moves into hamburger.

And for the record, there were many people seeking refuge who found it when they stepped over that painted line. While many who had believed they would find safety across the across the ocean were turned around and sent back to their deaths.

[Econoline]

BTW, I suspect that this foofaraw will help rather than hinder Trump in South Carolina, where there are many, many self-described Christians who don't think any Roman Catholic--let alone the Pope!--is a "real" Christian.

[Scooter]

I really am very uncomfortable defending Trump,

Tell me about it. You, the practising Catholi8c, side with Trump against the Pope, and I, the atheist, side with the Pope, and not for the first time.

[wesw]

does a "wall-free boarder" live in the yard?

[dales]

I was once a "boarder" at a dump in Antioch.

[RayThom]

... That's correct! Here is the Pope's actual quote in Spanish -
"Un hombre quien solamente thinkos abouta el wall constructo y no bridgeo constructo es no follero de Cristo. Es no gosipolo jowever. Yo givo el Trumpo benefito de doubtamundo."

That smells like papal bull to me. I like papa Frank and I'm chalking up this brouhaha on the fact that he was bone tired and not thinking enough to keep his pieholy shut.

“... So we don’t look at the troubles we can see now; rather, we fix our gaze on things that cannot be seen. For the things we see now will soon be gone, but the things we cannot see will last forever.” 2 Corinthians 4: 17-18

[Econoline]

does a "wall-free boarder" live in the yard?

Apparently he lives in St. Peter's Square. (And gets plenty of exercise!)

[Lord Jim]

I wonder what would have happened, if His Holiness had been asked:

"One of the candidates for the White House, Democrat Hillary Clinton, believes in partial birth abortion, and that you oppose this..."

[Econoline]